UK Post Smart Meter Main Breaker Tripping Intermittently

[Scott J Walker]

My grandparents are having problems after the installation of a smart meter (against my advice) and now the circuit breaker trips intermittently during the Day part of Economy 7 with no other discernable pattern.

Sometimes it will switch off after being toggled on again before a few minutes have passed but otherwise, it appears very random. There are two Live Wires coming into the Aclara SGM 1400 meters. Perhaps the day wire is loose?

There are such a range of possible causes such as wires being reversed or earth leakage that seem a nightmare for an electrician to diagnose that I feel I need to know as much as possible about what needs to be checked out because I have the great fear that this may be an incredibly obscure issue that only a very experienced and knowledgable spark can diagnose and resolve.

Incidentally, the Electrical Supplier, Ovo who pushes the meter by letter does not want to know and has refused even to send a supervisory installer to check the meter was correctly installed.

 

[timhoward]

I'm afraid this isn't totally uncommon.
It's either:
1 - loose connection after meter change or incorrect installation.
2 - unfortunately timing of a genuine earth leakage fault
3 - (more unusual but not impossible) the RF signal from the smart meter interfering with the RCD.

1 and 2 can be ruled out fairly quickly and methodically - it isn't quite the rocket science that you suggest for a decent sparks. For 2, either ramp testing the RCD's, or measuring earth leakage current directly will usually reveal an issue. Insulation resistance testing of each circuit can help narrow down the problem to a single circuit and provide a starting point.

The 3rd is harder. I think MEM / Memora 2000 / Square D consumer units were the main culprits.
If you do a forum search you'll find a few threads about this topic. I'm afraid it usually ends up either removing the smart meter or moving/changing the consumer unit.

One person left a video camera recording the moment it trips, and proved that without exception the meter transmit light came on exactly as it tripped, every time. I believe in that situation they managed to convince the energy company to come and change to a normal meter again.

I hope this at least helps you get started with this topic. Keep us posted!

 

[Scott J Walker]

I'm afraid this isn't totally uncommon.
It's either:
1 - loose connection after meter change or incorrect installation.
2 - unfortunately timing of a genuine earth leakage fault
3 - (more unusual but not impossible) the RF signal from the smart meter interfering with the RCD.

1 and 2 can be ruled out fairly quickly and methodically - it isn't quite the rocket science that you suggest for a decent sparks. For 2, either ramp testing the RCD's, or measuring earth leakage current directly will usually reveal an issue. Insulation resistance testing of each circuit can help narrow down the problem to a single circuit and provide a starting point.

The 3rd is harder. I think MEM / Memora 2000 / Square D consumer units were the main culprits.
If you do a forum search you'll find a few threads about this topic. I'm afraid it usually ends up either removing the smart meter or moving/changing the consumer unit.

One person left a video camera recording the moment it trips, and proved that without exception the meter transmit light came on exactly as it tripped, every time. I believe in that situation they managed to convince the energy company to come and change to a normal meter again.

I hope this at least helps you get started with this topic. Keep us posted!

A Memora 2000, yes. I noticed that coming up in my research alot as the RCD but often the threads i'd find would end without any kind of eureka solution.

If I could confirm that the two live wires coming into the meter are separate Night/Day wires it would be quite suggestive. Here is what I mean.

Oh, I had to redo my post after registering and missed a key detail; when the main breaker trips the power is not cut off to the whole house. The Kitchen and Living Room sockets are sometimes left running but the Lights/Upstairs sockets always go out.

 

[timhoward]

If you have or could obtain a wider photo showing the consumer units too, it would help.
But yes, the two brown tails on the right of the meter are for the different tariffs.

 

[Scott J Walker]

I got some photographs of the complete system, I should have done this when making the OP but I didn't have them to hand.

 

[snowhead]

There have been 2 main issues raised and proven on here re "Smart" meter installs
The first being the RCD fitted the the consumer units mentioned by Tim.

The second being a complete *ock up by the meter fitter when connecting up the new meter and misunderstanding connections to RCD's

 

[snowhead]

Having studied the pictures it looke like the clowns have escaped the circus again.

Can you do another photo from slightly further back showing everthing in one photo, so we can see where the larger grey cables all go.
And can you confirm which switch is tripping

 

[Scott J Walker]

Yes. It's the red one on the right of the top breaker unit.

 

[westward10]

Same meter same type of consumer unit. See #51.

Rcd tripping with no switch on after smart meter installarion

Hi I am.from uk I had a gas top up meter and a electric smart meter installation Thought to ask my energy supplier to fit me a gas smart meter aswell Their enginner came and said we will have to install the electric meter aswell so they will combine the smart thing on the display But after...

www.electriciansforums.net

 

[timhoward]

Having studied the pictures it looke like the clowns have escaped the circus again.

It's not the clearest set of tails to follow, but I've not yet spotted an issue.
Looks like the lower Wylex has storage heaters on the LH side and other circuits on right, so has both tariffs, and the MEM 2000 has only one tariff.
Unlike other ones we've seen, there seems to only be one RCD in this setup and it's not an up-front one, so the only thing they can get wrong is which tariff goes where, and even that wouldn't cause mis-directed current and RCD tripping.

 

[Scott J Walker]

If the Wylex is only for the Storage Heaters wouldn't it only need the night tariff and the MEM 2000 should have both tariffs?

Edit: Had a look, there's an upstairs heater on the Memara 2000 but that's usually not used. Otherwise Up Sockets, Down Sockets, Up Lights, Down Lights.

The day wire being slightly loose was my pet theory. Anything else seems complicated and certain to lead to replacing a lot of the equipment without being certain of a resolution.

Even replacing the whole CU doesn't seem to offer any guarantees without reasonable certainty of what the problem is.

 

[timhoward]

If the Wylex is only for the Storage Heaters wouldn't it only need the night tariff and the MEM 2000 should have both tariffs?

The right hand side of the Wylex has a B6 breaker, so likely lighting. This CU would therefore need both supplies.
Can you confirm there are no RCD's in the Wylex board, a photo with the flap up would show this. You could also remove the sticker that should have been removed years ago during installation!

The day wire being slightly loose was my pet theory.

Yes, it might be a loose connection but my money is on the Mem 2000 CU being affected by interference. The odds are stacked in favour of this - we've known this exact scenario before, and the RCD wasn't tripping before the smart meter was installed.

As I see it there are the following options:
1 - Try turning all the MEM 2000's breakers off leaving the RCD on. Sit in the dark for a while. If RCD still trips it strongly suggests the meter is causing it. It isn't 100% conclusive as it could technically also be a Neutral-Earth fault but you weren't seeing a fault before the meter arrived.
2 - Get a sparks to check connections
3 - See if a sparks can economically replace the RCD with an isolator and separately power the RCD with no load to 100% prove the point. Spares for the MEM2000 board are only available 2nd hand now, so this might be more trouble that it's worth.
4 - Reluctantly accept that the MEM2000 board was great in it's day but a replacement would highly likely solve the problem. It's only 4 easy circuits, a replacement won't be expensive or difficult. If you went for an RCBO board then each circuit has separate RCD protection, making this kind of scenario much easier to diagnose. You'd also then have type A RCD protection which copes much better with modern loads. (The MEM2000 has type AC which is effectively banned in latest regs for new installs)
5 - Try and get OVO to remove the smart meter. You could try pointing out this thread on their own forum:

My consumer unit keeps tripping, is this connected to the smart meter? | The OVO Forum

After OVO installed a smart meter it kept tripping. I reported this and was informed to re set the trip. This has gone in now for a year, I turn off all electrical appliances at night and it still trips. Surely this is not right?

tinyurl.com

 

[Scott J Walker]

The right hand side of the Wylex has a B6 breaker, so likely lighting. This CU would therefore need both supplies.
Can you confirm there are no RCD's in the Wylex board, a photo with the flap up would show this. You could also remove the sticker that should have been removed years ago during installation!

Yes, it might be a loose connection but my money is on the Mem 2000 CU being affected by interference. The odds are stacked in favour of this - we've known this exact scenario before, and the RCD wasn't tripping before the smart meter was installed.

As I see it there are the following options:
1 - Try turning all the MEM 2000's breakers off leaving the RCD on. Sit in the dark for a while. If RCD still trips it strongly suggests the meter is causing it. It isn't 100% conclusive as it could technically also be a Neutral-Earth fault but you weren't seeing a fault before the meter arrived.
2 - Get a sparks to check connections
3 - See if a sparks can economically replace the RCD with an isolator and separately power the RCD with no load to 100% prove the point. Spares for the MEM2000 board are only available 2nd hand now, so this might be more trouble that it's worth.
4 - Reluctantly accept that the MEM2000 board was great in it's day but a replacement would highly likely solve the problem. It's only 4 easy circuits, a replacement won't be expensive or difficult. If you went for an RCBO board then each circuit has separate RCD protection, making this kind of scenario much easier to diagnose. You'd also then have type A RCD protection which copes much better with modern loads. (The MEM2000 has type AC which is effectively banned in latest regs for new installs)
5 - Try and get OVO to remove the smart meter. You could try pointing out this thread on their own forum:

My consumer unit keeps tripping, is this connected to the smart meter? | The OVO Forum

After OVO installed a smart meter it kept tripping. I reported this and was informed to re set the trip. This has gone in now for a year, I turn off all electrical appliances at night and it still trips. Surely this is not right?

tinyurl.com

Sorry for the somewhat slow response.

It wouldn't be possible to test that way since when I say intermittent it's not daily but closer to 2 or 3 times a week.

 

[timhoward]

It wouldn't be possible to test that way since when I say intermittent it's not daily but closer to 2 or 3 times a week.

I think most reports of smart meters tripping RCD's were a little bit more frequent than that, often every 24 hours.

Time to find/call a sparks who will very quickly be able to see how close the RCD is to tripping 'normally' and if high track down why.
If this leads nowhere, then there are a couple of Memera2000 main switch isolators on ebay at the moment for under a fiver. You could suggest a sparks temporarily replaces the RCD with one and powers the RCD separately as this would prove the point if it's the meter doing it.

 

[littlespark]

Is that a burn mark through the blank?

 

[Robertfm]

I think most reports of smart meters tripping RCD's were a little bit more frequent than that, often every 24 hours.

Time to find/call a sparks who will very quickly be able to see how close the RCD is to tripping 'normally' and if high track down why.
If this leads nowhere, then there are a couple of Memera2000 main switch isolators on ebay at the moment for under a fiver. You could suggest a sparks temporarily replaces the RCD with one and powers the RCD separately as this would prove the point if it's the meter doing it.

Had OVO/SSE engineer attend today. He intended to replace the smart meter with 2nd generation as he was going through the commission process the Garage breaker tripped and wouldn't reset. Nothing on in garage or plugged in. He explained there are several types of breakers that the 2nd generation nuisance trips cause by the radio waves. Proteus boards being one type. He said he would re-install the original after 'the fix' tin foil didn't work. End result I no longer have smart meter connectivity because the original was no longer connected to DCC. Waiting to hear from OVO again.

 

[timhoward]

Had OVO/SSE engineer attend today. He intended to replace the smart meter with 2nd generation as he was going through the commission process the Garage breaker tripped and wouldn't reset. Nothing on in garage or plugged in. He explained there are several types of breakers that the 2nd generation nuisance trips cause by the radio waves. Proteus boards being one type. He said he would re-install the original after 'the fix' tin foil didn't work. End result I no longer have smart meter connectivity because the original was no longer connected to DCC. Waiting to hear from OVO again.

Which board is the garage breaker on? Or is that on a board that hasn't been photographed yet?

I'm trying to decide if there was a genuine problem with his new meter and a Proteus device, or he somehow mixed up the tails and that was the cause of an RCD objecting.

As 7 months have now passed it might be worth considering getting the whole install tidied up from the meter tails onwards and a new modern consumer unit fitted.
This smart meter radio interference thing only affects older consumer units and devices in my experience. I've not known it happen with anything fitted in the last 5-10 years.

 

[Robertfm]

Which board is the garage breaker on? Or is that on a board that hasn't been photographed yet?

I'm trying to decide if there was a genuine problem with his new meter and a Proteus device, or he somehow mixed up the tails and that was the cause of an RCD objecting.

As 7 months have now passed it might be worth considering getting the whole install tidied up from the meter tails onwards and a new modern consumer unit fitted.
This smart meter radio interference thing only affects older consumer units and devices in my experience. I've not known it happen with anything fitted in the last 5-10 years.

My post is not about the original case, it was my experience yesterday. Prior to the second generation install the generation 1 meter had no issues. According to the engineer it was a radio wave issue identified as affecting certain types of RCD. As for the board, it was just one consumer unit. The garage breaker is an RCCB that has had no previous issues. Seems once again the second generation we were promised was the solutions to drop outs etc isn't. Now there is a third type supposedly available next year. Meanwhile our smart meter is no longer connected to DCC