Safety! Am I really that old???

[shanky887614]

Wrapping tape round a bad cut is probably the best thing you can do because it compresses the wound and stops it bleeding. Have always done it. Was putting a Bosch speed spade bit through a bit of pic window board last year when it snatched, jumped, and landed square on a finger nail. Gritted teeth, shoved the apprentice out of my way and tightly wrapped it, and the pain was gone within seconds. It's brilliant.

keep a roll of this in the van

 

[PEG]

The problem is actually that the H&S laws are destroying the trade and infact society in general. Of course safety should be a personal issue.

The ONLY people that benifet from the H&S laws and requirements are those who have manufactured work for themselves by creating them and the businesses who have jumped on the band wagon created by it. The general worker who is sensible and trained is hampered by the restrictions enforced upon him, the 'newby' or trainee into the trade is denied the right to be responsible for himself and enforced to rely on the requirements, they will never be granted the chance to apply common sense and as a result will be hampered by it. The businesses are ladened with the burden of the responsibilities and threats and last of all the customers/public are ultimately the ones who have to foot the cost.

I may be a dinosaur but I have been around the block a time or two and in my time in the trade I have trained many, many apprentices and employed many good men. But as a small business I will now NEVER employ or train again purely because of the H&S implications, and i certainly aren't the only one.

...I have to disagree,fella...

I am not unaware of risk,my work has involved me in areas,where injury and death,have occurred.

I have worked,in places on this planet,where safety has proved absent,and concern over the death of a work colleague,is not shared by employers,if they do not share a similar race or religion.

My hobbies have included motocross,banger racing,dead-lifts,para motoring and the regular partaking and organising of most forms of shotgunning.

In short,i like to think i'm a bus ride from being fairy-like...

...But if you truly believe,that HSE safety law and practice,in this country,has not benefited a multitude of folk,including all on here...i despair...

 

[shanky887614]

...I have to disagree,fella...

I am not unaware of risk,my work has involved me in areas,where injury and death,have occurred.

I have worked,in places on this planet,where safety has proved absent,and concern over the death of a work colleague,is not shared by employers,if they do not share a similar race or religion.

My hobbies have included motocross,banger racing,dead-lifts,para motoring and the regular partaking and organising of most forms of shotgunning.

In short,i like to think i'm a bus ride from being fairy-like...

...But if you truly believe,that HSE safety law and practice,in this country,has not benefited a multitude of folk,including all on here...i despair...

i dont think any of us here disagree with health and safety as such just how overboard it is.


why do we need to wear a hi-viz, hard hat glasses and gloves to connect a socket on a site?

step laders are banned and i for one believe its made it more dangerous.

ppe should be recommended and manditory in certain areas but not all as a matter of course.

education rather than protective measures as the primary safety precaution.


if im using a knife ill cut away from me, ill keep my hands and feet away from where im drilling or cutting.

ill even wear glasses/goggles as and when needed (not always needed when drilling especially when drilling down (depending on materials) etc

 

[YoungScud]

The problem is actually that the H&S laws are destroying the trade and infact society in general. Of course safety should be a personal issue.

The ONLY people that benifet from the H&S laws and requirements are those who have manufactured work for themselves by creating them and the businesses who have jumped on the band wagon created by it. The general worker who is sensible and trained is hampered by the restrictions enforced upon him, the 'newby' or trainee into the trade is denied the right to be responsible for himself and enforced to rely on the requirements, they will never be granted the chance to apply common sense and as a result will be hampered by it. The businesses are ladened with the burden of the responsibilities and threats and last of all the customers/public are ultimately the ones who have to foot the cost.

I may be a dinosaur but I have been around the block a time or two and in my time in the trade I have trained many, many apprentices and employed many good men. But as a small business I will now NEVER employ or train again purely because of the H&S implications, and i certainly aren't the only one.

I don't even know where to begin with this nonsense. It's like reading the Daily Mail. You're completely misrepresenting H&S law and its purpose. In fact, the law very rarely bans or otherwise prohibits specific items or practices. HASAW, as far as employees are concerned, really only addresses three issues.

1. That you take care of yourself and others affected by your acts and ommissions. Seem unreasonable to you?

2. That you cooperate with your employer in enabling him to discharge his legal obligations. In other words, your employer, not unreasonably, is expected to look at the tasks his employees carry out and write a process for doing so. They, in turn, have to cooperate with that. Terrible, eh?

3. That you do not interfere with anything provided for your health or safety. Don't cut the insulation off your screwdriver.

Now, we could look at various stautory regulations, but we'd find the same kind of language there. The problem, in my view, is not the law, it's interpretation of the law. It's about sensibly applying what's in front of you, and on the whole that's exactly how the law applies. Do some employers over emphasise some aspects of it? They surely do, but the problem is not the law, it's them. Frankly, how much good has been done by the introduction of H&S law isn't even a subject for debate. It's unarguably successful, using any measure. Here's the thing though; although some small businesses may be squeezed to the extent that they fail, if they can't keep their workers properly safe, then arguably they should fail and society will benefit as a result.

 

[YoungScud]

i dont think any of us here disagree with health and safety as such just how overboard it is.


why do we need to wear a hi-viz, hard hat glasses and gloves to connect a socket on a site?

step laders are banned and i for one believe its made it more dangerous.

ppe should be recommended and manditory in certain areas but not all as a matter of course.

education rather than protective measures as the primary safety precaution.


if im using a knife ill cut away from me, ill keep my hands and feet away from where im drilling or cutting.

ill even wear glasses/goggles as and when needed (not always needed when drilling especially when drilling down (depending on materials) etc

"why do we need to wear a hi-viz, hard hat glasses and gloves to connect a socket on a site? " You don't, unless the site management says you do. It's their site, and only they can decide what level of PPE is appropriate. The law plays no part in that. Personally, I find a blanket requiremnt for high-vis strange, but it's not my call, and certainly isn't required by law.


"step laders are banned and i for one believe its made it more dangerous." You have my attention now. Where exactly are stepladders banned? Certainly not in law. The Work at Heights Regs even allow for use of ladders and stepladders as a working platform for limited periods. I can assure you that the guys I work with regularly use stepladders every day.

"ppe should be recommended and manditory in certain areas but not all as a matter of course." Again, PPE isn't necessarily a legal requirement, although it usually makes a degree of sense. In some instances, it woud be madness not to use it. The PPE at Work Regs don't really require the use of PPE unless risk assessment demands it. They're more about selection, provision and traing surrounding PPE.

While I do understand your argument, that argument isn't with the law, it's with those responsible for its application.


Edit: Found this: Myth: HSE has banned stepladders. Ban on stepladders? I think not.

Also this: http://www.hse.gov.uk/myth/myth-busting/2012/case093-hivis.htm

 

[telectrix]

totally agree.common sense should dictate what ppe should be used and when to use it. unfortunately a lot of employers and site management buffoons insist on blanket use of unnecessary ppe because they don't possess any common sense.

 

[YoungScud]

I think what's behind it is this: regulations pretty much leave it up to the individual to assess rsik and make a decision as to what preacutions, PPE etc. to use. Employers get nervous about that, so they, in writing processes, become prescriptive. For example, while the Work at Heights Regs talk about falling a distance liable to cause injury, employers will try to prescribe what that distance is. It's understandable in a way, but doesn't always make sense to everyone. The alternative, of simply ignoring regulations, seems far more frightening to me.

 

[vxwestie]

I don't even know where to begin with this nonsense. It's like reading the Daily Mail. You're completely misrepresenting H&S law and its purpose. In fact, the law very rarely bans or otherwise prohibits specific items or practices. HASAW, as far as employees are concerned, really only addresses three issues.

1. That you take care of yourself and others affected by your acts and ommissions. Seem unreasonable to you?

2. That you cooperate with your employer in enabling him to discharge his legal obligations. In other words, your employer, not unreasonably, is expected to look at the tasks his employees carry out and write a process for doing so. They, in turn, have to cooperate with that. Terrible, eh?

3. That you do not interfere with anything provided for your health or safety. Don't cut the insulation off your screwdriver.

Now, we could look at various stautory regulations, but we'd find the same kind of language there. The problem, in my view, is not the law, it's interpretation of the law. It's about sensibly applying what's in front of you, and on the whole that's exactly how the law applies. Do some employers over emphasise some aspects of it? They surely do, but the problem is not the law, it's them. Frankly, how much good has been done by the introduction of H&S law isn't even a subject for debate. It's unarguably successful, using any measure. Here's the thing though; although some small businesses may be squeezed to the extent that they fail, if they can't keep their workers properly safe, then arguably they should fail and society will benefit as a result.

everyone has their own opinion, but with an opinion, knowledge and language like that I can only assume you are one of those who work in the world of H&S and benifet greatly from the nonsense it incurs. It's certainly not the real world and can only assume your not a self employed spark. (No offence intended)

 

[YoungScud]

everyone has their own opinion, but with an opinion, knowledge and language like that I can only assume you are one of those who work in the world of H&S and benifet greatly from the nonsense it incurs. It's certainly not the real world and can only assume your not a self employed spark. (No offence intended)

No, you're right. I'm not a self employed spark, but is that really relevant? You're welcome to your assumptions, but they're meaningless. This is not about opinion. Everything I've stated as fact is verifiable. I spent a lifetime on the tools until around 8 years ago, when I became a trainer. It's certainly true to say I've seen a different side to the world since, but again, that can only add to the sum of my experience. perhaps if you had spent some time in investigating accidents and their causes, you might feel differently too. The law is not the enemy here, misinterpretation, on all sides (and some of the frankly ignorant comments on here confirm this), is.

 

[vxwestie]

The laws and lunacy they incur are certainly my enemy. But we'll agree to disagree.
I'll continue to tow the line where I HAVE to, I'll flaunt them when I NEED to.

 

[jimmy mustard]

These days most large companies only care about how H&S reflects on them, to the point where they will give bonuses for not having a LTA, or going to extreme lenghts to wiggle out of any blame post accident.
I've spoken out against safety bonuses been given where i work as no one should be paid to work safely. If anyone at my workplace has a LTA everybody looses their safety bonus, and this leads to the injured person having to come in to work to prevent a lost time accident.

 

[PEG]

everyone has their own opinion, but with an opinion, knowledge and language like that I can only assume you are one of those who work in the world of H&S and benifet greatly from the nonsense it incurs. It's certainly not the real world and can only assume your not a self employed spark. (No offence intended)

...Well i am self-employed,and have been,more or less continually,for a great many years.

Youngscud nailed it,with the "application" of said directives...added to the popular urban myth-sphere,which engenders anger and frustration,as above.

On occasion,the application of these directives,can have unintended consequences,both positive and negative.

I will give you an example...on a large site,years back,i was involved with a steel erecting company,not long after all drawings came with an annotation "All access by MEWPS".

The steel fixing lads,all trundled around site in various platforms and booms,and the company responsible for their well-being,decreed that ALL operatives,whether working or transporting the machines,were to clip their safety harnesses,whilst in the cages...whatever.

Non conforming was stated as a grounds for immediate dismissal.

So one fine day,two lads,were trundling along a site road,transporting a large diesel boom (JLG 80HX) to the job area.

One lad was clipped on to the basket anchor. The other was not.

Basket was 4-6' off the ground,and they pulled to one side,to allow a wagon past. Machine slid down a hole,bucket flipped up,and both were jettisoned.

The lad NOT clipped on,flew out,landed on a pile of earth,shocked and dirty...

The lad clipped on,flew out to the extent of his harness lanyard,then whipped in to the boom section,and shattered his pelvis. A right mess.

The up-shot of this tale,is the lad who was NOT clipped on,escaped discipline,as his brief,(yes,it got to that...) argued that his client,as the person in the moment,risk assessed his own actions,deemed it safer NOT to clip on,and was vilified by the end result.

Now,obviously,this real-life example holds a variety of chances,but demonstrates that even best practice,can be deviated from,IF you are able to justify your actions.

I operate in several industries that have quite onerous safety requirements,but can find myself exempt,from all of them,if they hamper repair,adjustment or demonstration. Also,any emergency situation,can over-ride such requirements.


...But do i think safety training,equipment and legislation is wrong?

Not at all :sailor:

 

[MikeL1]

Have only read about half of the replies and good banter from both sides, but you want to try working in the Offshore industry (some of you maybe have done).
Safety is priority, we RA before and during every task, and I mean every task no matter how small or menial.
Basically we are our own and everyone else's safety officer onboard, we all look after and look out for each other, every day.
I feel safer on a North Sea Production Platform than I have done on previous construction sites.

So to answer the question 'am I too old for safety' if you feel it's all a pain in the a**e then you need to get out asap, because your worst case scenario is you may injure someone else due to your lack of safety awareness, the rules are in place to not only protect you but everyone around you, think about it.

 

[PEG]

Moving whilst extended,is normal practice. Most of the larger self-propelled booms and scissors have this as a function.

Some have limited speed or a cut-out height,but moving at working height,is normal.

What has occurred over the last 30 years,is an increasing reliance,on safety features such as envelope management systems,and fail-safe functions.

In an attempt to make plant "idiot-proof",they have,on occasion,allowed idiots,to be pilots.

The old-school methods,of bringing operators through the ranks,with sound experience,and time in the saddle,has gone.

The modern way,seems to be short intensive courses,followed by short supervised experience,then reliance on equipment safety features and peer involvement.

....But,if a hair-dresser can do a short course,and inject Botox in yer birds' forehead,i don't see why an arsey 22 year old,who can't speak properly,shouldn't pilot a £200,000 30 tonne machine....what can go wrong? :dizzy2:

Just seen the big strut jib crawler,on luffer,go over,in Manhattan. Looked to be unloaded,and impossible to know,but crawler undercarriage went over at same time,so maybe not catastrophic failure...

Could be computer said yes...one reported as deceased,very sad.

 

[shanky887614]

Have only read about half of the replies and good banter from both sides, but you want to try working in the Offshore industry (some of you maybe have done).
Safety is priority, we RA before and during every task, and I mean every task no matter how small or menial.
Basically we are our own and everyone else's safety officer onboard, we all look after and look out for each other, every day.
I feel safer on a North Sea Production Platform than I have done on previous construction sites.

So to answer the question 'am I too old for safety' if you feel it's all a pain in the a**e then you need to get out asap, because your worst case scenario is you may injure someone else due to your lack of safety awareness, the rules are in place to not only protect you but everyone around you, think about it.

its not so much that we find it a pain in the arse.

on certain sites it would be safer to do the install a certain way but typical multinational h&s pencil pushers say no, its all about minimising risk whats good in one situation isnt good in another.

in a boiler house it would be safer for people to go down to boots, shorts and t-shirt but certain company policies will say you need boots,trousers/boiler suit, gloves, hard hat and glasses, you need to adapt policy depending on risk factors including temperature

the only way to access a lot of places now is via ladder because of poorly laid out designs.


we have had it before on a site where guys podiums were an inch below the celing grid and they were standing on the top bars of the podium as no one was allowed steps or ladders

 

[YoungScud]

Whats a "risk assessment"?

Is that a serious question? If it's not, sorry, i don't get the joke.

 

[YoungScud]

I searched around for 'ban on ladders' and one of the pieces I found was from a while back.

Window cleaners banned from using ladders - Telegraph

Now, here we had Nick Clegg, washing windows at a Salvation Army building, no doubt to show solidarity with the workers, reporting a ban on ladders, the worker being asked satating that 'someone' had stopped their use. That someone turned out to be the head of the cleaning company. He stated, "Anything that will reduce the risk for our workers, we will do. Several window cleaners die every year, and more are seriously injured, falling off ladders."
"As well as reducing risk, the poles increase productivity. They're much safer, and much quicker – why wouldn't we want to use them?"

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but the decision appears to have been based on accident stats (something wrong with that?) and productivity (or that?).

None of this si about H&S law. It's, as I said, about how we interpret it. I understand concerns, but if we remove the protection of law, we know from bitter experience that safety of workers and the public will suffer. We lareday know there are many unscrupulous employers who flout the law now. There can only be more if it's removed.

 

[vxwestie]

Is that a serious question? If it's not, sorry, i don't get the joke.

yes, it was a joke.....
i learnt what one was several years ago on a course I was forced to go on. Although I've never done one, nor seen one since !

 

[YoungScud]

yes, it was a joke.....
i learnt what one was several years ago on a course I was forced to go on. Although I've never done one, nor seen one since !

So you don't ever take a good look at your working environment, to see if there are any threats to your safety?

 

[Spoon]

So you don't ever take a good look at your working environment, to see if there are any threats to your safety?

I don't think vxwestie was implying that. I think he is just on about the paperwork variety.
We all do risk assessments all our lives. From my 5 year old who tries it on with me, seeing how far she can go before being she gets told off, to when you are very old, and farting without following through....