Size of shower cable

[newtothis]

 

[VoltzElectrical]

Stuff and nonsence :biggrin:

nonsense.
ner ner

 

[Silly Sausage]

To try and prove how good they are Clive. I have nothing to prove to myself or anybody else.

"..... cause I got class I ain't never used yet."

:sifone:

 

[baldsparkies]

I'm guessing the comments were for me regarding arrogance, and I'm guessing that's because you perceive me to be 'not one of the nice guys'.

Well guess what, I couldn't give hoot.

I certainly don't come from the 'I know better than anyone else' camp, far from it in fact, but your advice about 6mm for up to 8.5kW and 10mm for the rest, although a rough guide, is still wrong. It would be like me saying that a rough guide for sub mains is to use 16mm cable!? Well hang on a moment... What about a 200A sub main?!

You start giving people 'rough' guides and they will use them. It is in our nature to take a mile when given an inch.

There are situations where 16mm cable may well be needed for an 8.5kW shower and there are other situations when 6mm may well be just fine for a 10.5kW shower. You explain well that there are other issues that need taking into account but this guy is a plumber, he isn't going to know is he. For all you know he may be looking at your post and all he sees is "6mm is fine for 8.5kW". That is where the danger lies and was the only point I was making.

If you're going to be giving out advice to unqualified people it should be "get a qualified electrician", no more no less. The moment you start making them think that it is a job they can do themselves they are going to cease this opportunity aren't they! If they're the sort that know their limits they wouldn't be on here in the first place asking us how to do something they shouldn't be doing. What is worse however is not only providing advice that allows them to scoot off and start tampering with the unknown, but providing advice that hints at options that may well be unsuitable. In this case, you've nothing short of a recipe for disaster.

I know that a lot of people on here have the undying urge to 'help' others, all at the same time showing off what knowledge they may (or as is often the case 'don't) have and racking up their post count at the same time. All I'm saying is maybe sometimes, it's best to quell that urge.

If by saying this I come across as a d¡ckhead then so be it. I'd far rather be a d¡ckhead that doles out the right advice than a d¡ckhead that doles out wrong and potentially dangerous advice.

Considering your avatar you will probably appreciate the scene in the film Patton when the Russian general toasts him.
So with that in mind from one Dick Head to another Dick Head, I will drink to that.

With regards to giving poor advice on the cable sizing front.
I feel I have made it quite clear, in my original reply to the OP, that there are factors that need to be taken into consideration, not least length of run and installation method.
Its all there if you take the time to read it !!
And if my comments are without substance or merit I suggest you search the internet yourself, because like the OP its all there and far from a big hush hush secret these days.

Have a look for yourself,

Removed

Argue with the shower manufactures by all means.
Do I see 8.5kw 6mm mentioned there ??
At least others can judge for themselves, but that's not to say your not entitled to your opinion.
With reference to the majority of your comments I will say this.
I agree with you.
But the one regarding blind leading blind, bit harsh is that.
By all means don't agree.
But don't assume a guy doesn't know his stuff purely because his opinion differs with yours.

 

[D00DY_T00DY]

Meh, it's only a few wires man. What can possibly go wrong?
Apart from a horrible, painful, fiery death.

As my tutor says "electrical fire, 3 dead and you in jail for manslaughter" that's when someone doesn't test properly :lol:

 

[Silly Sausage]

Baldsparkies; I think the mistake you've made in post 10, is that you've virtually given the go ahead, then gone on to qualify your statement.
Should have gone the other way round.
The geezer will just see what he wants in your initial statement and ignore the rest!

 

[Guest77]

Considering your avatar you will probably appreciate the scene in the film Patton when the Russian general toasts him.
So with that in mind from one Dick Head to another Dick Head, I will drink to that.

With regards to giving poor advice on the cable sizing front.
I feel I have made it quite clear, in my original reply to the OP, that there are factors that need to be taken into consideration, not least length of run and installation method.
Its all there if you take the time to read it !!
And if my comments are without substance or merit I suggest you search the internet yourself, because like the OP its all there and far from a big hush hush secret these days.

Have a look for yourself,


Removed

Argue with the shower manufactures by all means.
Do I see 8.5kw 6mm mentioned there ??
At least others can judge for themselves, but that's not to say your not entitled to your opinion.
With reference to the majority of your comments I will say this.
I agree with you.
But the one regarding blind leading blind, bit harsh is that.
By all means don't agree.
But don't assume a guy doesn't know his stuff purely because his opinion differs with yours.

Don't attempt to defend the fact a 8.5kw shower cannot be used on a 6mm2 cable, believe me you will lose the argument, we consider ohms law and several tables in BS 7671 as well as installation factors/ methods in BS7671 when calculating cable sizes, ahem, say no more, now crawl back into your fox hole, incomming

 

[Leesparkykent]

Very broadly speaking up to 8.5kw on a 6mm
8.5kw to 10kw will need a 10mm
You need to consider some very important variables including,
The installation method ie is the cable run enclosed in some way or clipped direct.
Is the cable running within some form of insulation ect.
To explain,
The cable under load generates temperatures above ambient, and its ability to dissipate those temperatures will be greatly affected by the way its installed.
You also have to consider the length of run as this can affect the difference between the supply voltage at source and the voltage at the load/shower terminals.
This is known as volt drop and directly relates to the internal resistance of the cable per metre, in relation to its cross sectional area.
The characteristics of the protective device are also important as you need to ensure that the device disconnects the supply before the user of the shower receives an electric shock, should a fault condition develop.
The installations integrity need to be verified to ensure insulation,polarity, along with a low resistance earth return path are able to satisfy these requirements.
A certificate recording these results is produced to provide a paper trail for future reference.
Building regulations under part P also come into play when working in bathrooms as they are known as a special location, and these are divided into various zones for compliance.
If all this makes sense to you and you have the appropriate test equipment and knowledge to use it, then your good to go.
If not, consult a qualified electrician.:icon12:

this is about the only thing the plumber would of seen IMO.

 

[D Skelton]

Considering your avatar you will probably appreciate the scene in the film Patton when the Russian general toasts him.
So with that in mind from one Dick Head to another Dick Head, I will drink to that.

With regards to giving poor advice on the cable sizing front.
I feel I have made it quite clear, in my original reply to the OP, that there are factors that need to be taken into consideration, not least length of run and installation method.
Its all there if you take the time to read it !!
And if my comments are without substance or merit I suggest you search the internet yourself, because like the OP its all there and far from a big hush hush secret these days.

Have a look for yourself,

Removed

At least others can judge for themselves, but that's not to say your not entitled to your opinion.
With reference to the majority of your comments I will say this.
I agree with you.
But the one regarding blind leading blind, bit harsh is that.
By all means don't agree.
But don't assume a guy doesn't know his stuff purely because his opinion differs with yours.

Not quite sure what my avatar has to do with anything but hey ho.

For clarity, I wasn't referring to you as a dick head, rather that I am happy to be a dick head giving out right advice instead of wrong.

Also, I didn't quite go as far as to say 'blind leading the blind' did I?! I suggest you read that post in more detail.

Finally, with regards to helping people who don't know what they're doing, just because there is advice out there, that doesn't mean to say we as electricians should be adding to it. If you want to take an 'if you can't beat 'em join 'em' attitude that's your prerogative, but you won't catch me joining in. All I would say is that you should be a little more careful in future that the advice you dole out is right, and not leading people towards doing things that are potentially dangerous. If you truly knew your stuff, I'd suggest you wouldn't be doing this would you? Hence my advice; get a qualified electrician.

 

[D Skelton]

Baldsparkies; I think the mistake you've made in post 10, is that you've virtually given the go ahead, then gone on to qualify your statement.
Should have gone the other way round.
The geezer will just see what he wants in your initial statement and ignore the rest!

this is about the only thing the plumber would of seen IMO.

Precisely the point I was making!

Apparently though, making g such a point makes us not very nice lol!

 

[Leesparkykent]

I wasn't Questioning baldsparkies competency, just the fact he provided this information to someone who doesn't have the ability to do basic cable size calculations other wise this thread wouldn't of been started in the 1st place. And for saying this information is readily available on the internet, let the OP find this information for himself and not spoon feed him possibly the wrong information.
This plumber would of likely seen the bit I highlighted in bold in my previous post and took it as gospel as it's just come straight from an electricians mouth/keyboard lol.

 

[Guest77]

I wasn't Questioning baldsparkies competency, just the fact he provided this information to someone who doesn't have the ability to do basic cable size calculations other wise this thread wouldn't of been started in the 1st place. And for saying this information is readily available on the internet, let the OP find this information for himself and not spoon feed him possibly the wrong information.
This plumber would of likely seen the the bit I highlighted in bold in my previous post and took it as gospel as it's just come straight from an electricians mouth/keyboard lol.

Well we were :biggrin:

 

[Doomed]

Dear oh dear,
Talk about making a mountain out of a mole hill.
The original poster could gleam the information he requires from any web search or forum he wishes to visit.
It takes a simple google search.
And maybe that's where the real problem lies because as we all know a little knowledge can sometimes be dangerous.
The OP as an example could easily have visited this;

Removed

And taken his info from there.
So in retrospect I was simply making the OP aware of the many variables required to ensure the install was safe and compliant.
6mm as said, will suffice in most instances for an 8.5kw shower
And from 8.5 to 10kw 10mm.
Once again the installation method and cable run along with other factors will dictate.
Safety is paramount and for that reason a qualified electrician is the sensible way forward.
And looking back that's exactly what I said.
So no I was not giving the OP the green light, I was simply making him aware that there is more to his question than he was aware of.
I pointed out that if he was unsure seek a qualified electrician.
Hardly a green light, and as a response certainly not a case of the blind leading the blind.
I am well aware of my level of competence, experience, and knowledge base.
Still learning actually as we all are.
We can have differences of opinion, and different levels of experience.
But I hold true to my belief that certain people on this forum have a very arrogant attitude, and as said come from the I know better than anyone else brigade.
We can all cross T's and dot I's looking for holes to pick in someone's comments, but that doesn't excuse rudeness or lack of respect.
We all come from different backgrounds and levels of experience.
Regardless of trade or profession there are decent people and there are silly billy's lol.
Its as simple as that, we are what we are fellas.:icon12:

Reading your link it says up to 8KW on 6mm, unlike your earlier statement.

 

[baldsparkies]

For what its worth these kind of posts are not just related to this forum.

Removed

In real world scenarios I have come across 8.5kw showers on a 4mm cable running for years with no sign of thermal damage whatsoever.
I am NOT condoning this in any way but it does happen.
Point taken on the 8kw scenario with regards to the links but real world can,often be very different to calculated values and what you see in BS7671 or the like.

As said in my first post, if in doubt get a qualified electrician.

That's it from me enough said, cus this could go on and on.

And for what its worth I am not disagreeing with your comments, just the bad attitude attached to some of them.

 

[Guest77]

For what its worth these kind of posts are not just related to this forum.

Removed

In real world scenarios I have come across 8.5kw showers on a 4mm cable running for years with no sign of thermal damage whatsoever.
I am NOT condoning this in any way but it does happen.
Point taken on the 8kw scenario with regards to the links but real world can,often be very different to calculated values and what you see in BS7671 or the like.

As said in my first post, if in doubt get a qualified electrician.

That's it from me enough said, cus this could go on and on.

And for what its worth I am not disagreeing with your comments, just the bad attitude attached to some of them.

Posting up threads from a rival site is not allowed usually here, oh by the way= Post reported

 

[tazz]

Please do not post links to other advertised websites.

 

[baldsparkies]

Please do not post links to other advertised websites.

Sorry Tazz, genuine error.

The posts were relating to arguments regarding the use of 6mm cable on 8.5kw showers.

On paper its a no no. In practice on a 32a mcb they were finding no thermal damage or evidence of.
I would never condone this on a new install, far from it. But I have seen it myself and even 8.5kw on a 4mm with again no signs of thermal damage.
On the other hand I have come across a number of 45 amp pull switches with poorly connected cables often on the neutral side which have deffo signs of heat damage.
depends really on how long the showers in use and again installation criteria ect.
I am NOT saying its good practice or correct, just that it does happen, and can happen with no ill effects.
The opposite can also be true, with dire consequences, but thankfully I have never been witness to this.

Just a quick point,
Very often good qualified sparkies will get together in the real world.
They are different ages have been in the game for varying times.
Now as said I haven't actually met up with any who know of, or have subscribed to this sight.
But one thing I can say, face to face you can talk freely and discuss different viewpoints and opinions.
I am well known and respect them for who they are and what they know.
Never would they say or imply that a 61 year old man who has been in this industry since the age of 17.
Covered an apprenticeship C&G 236 part 1,2, B and C. 16th 17th 2391
JIB registered approved and Site manager gradings.
Worked and run commercial installs for Aldi ,Q-Fit, Frenchay Hospital cleft unit. Ushers pubs. Texaco garage installs along with the gilbarco lads, a great bunch as I remember. (Cold windy wet and making off MI's. No not fond memories there)
Anyway I digress, as !!!! incompetent.
But you come onto a forum such as this and well !! It speaks for itself.
I noted a comment about coming on the site to build up there post count, and to boast about what they do or do not know.
There is an underlying ego problem going on here, and of course this aint part of the real world.
I won't be posting up again, because I have become highly suspicious of the types of people that are on here.
By that I mean some of the regular posters who seem to be drawing together against new meat so to speak.
Its not healthy.
Sorry if I have rattled cages, but it needs to be said.

This link shouldn't draw moderation hopefully

http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk...ons/48104-using-8-5kw-shower-6mm-circuit.html

 

[Diddy]

I won't be posting up again, because I have become highly suspicious of the types of people that are on here.

Ignoring my own opinion on weather you were right or wrong what I would say is IF you believe in something -Enjoy giving out advice and have a bit of a moan as well as a giggle then imho you are shooting yourself and potentially others in the foot. If you think there is an undercurrent as well as some ego's on here you can always put your own point across and move on to the next post. For goodness sake don't let tinternet make you mad in real life.....it really isn't worth it !!

My take ? I wouldn't have given a plumber the advice...as we all know plumbers are.......lol - Add to the fact that being a DIY'r which he is to this trade then the chances of a loose connection or some other nonsense increases.....the other reason for me not giving the advice is pure selfish protectionism.....I want the bugger to call me for the job....just as I call him when I want to put a new bog/sink or whatever in...otherwise we both starve.
I always saw this place as a sparks discussion site with the odd bit of DIY advice chucked in....there is plenty for us sad buggers to chat about.

 

[D Skelton]

Sorry Tazz, genuine error.

The posts were relating to arguments regarding the use of 6mm cable on 8.5kw showers.

On paper its a no no. In practice on a 32a mcb they were finding no thermal damage or evidence of.
I would never condone this on a new install, far from it. But I have seen it myself and even 8.5kw on a 4mm with again no signs of thermal damage.
On the other hand I have come across a number of 45 amp pull switches with poorly connected cables often on the neutral side which have deffo signs of heat damage.
depends really on how long the showers in use and again installation criteria ect.
I am NOT saying its good practice or correct, just that it does happen, and can happen with no ill effects.
The opposite can also be true, with dire consequences, but thankfully I have never been witness to this.

Just a quick point,
Very often good qualified sparkies will get together in the real world.
They are different ages have been in the game for varying times.
Now as said I haven't actually met up with any who know of, or have subscribed to this sight.
But one thing I can say, face to face you can talk freely and discuss different viewpoints and opinions.
I am well known and respect them for who they are and what they know.
Never would they say or imply that a 61 year old man who has been in this industry since the age of 17.
Covered an apprenticeship C&G 236 part 1,2, B and C. 16th 17th 2391
JIB registered approved and Site manager gradings.
Worked and run commercial installs for Aldi ,Q-Fit, Frenchay Hospital cleft unit. Ushers pubs. Texaco garage installs along with the gilbarco lads, a great bunch as I remember. (Cold windy wet and making off MI's. No not fond memories there)
Anyway I digress, as !!!! incompetent.
But you come onto a forum such as this and well !! It speaks for itself.
I noted a comment about coming on the site to build up there post count, and to boast about what they do or do not know.
There is an underlying ego problem going on here, and of course this aint part of the real world.
I won't be posting up again, because I have become highly suspicious of the types of people that are on here.
By that I mean some of the regular posters who seem to be drawing together against new meat so to speak.
Its not healthy.
Sorry if I have rattled cages, but it needs to be said.

This link shouldn't draw moderation hopefully

http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk...ons/48104-using-8-5kw-shower-6mm-circuit.html

Oh grow up and stop with the self pity will you. No one on here is calling you incompetent, no one is arguing the ---- with you to satisfy some kind of ego and no one is forming some kind of secret society to 'stick it' to the new members. All we have done is point out the potential dangers of giving out advice to people who shouldn't really be given it.

The only cage being rattled here is your own. Jesus, if you're this susceptible to throwing your toys out of the pram over someone online disagreeing with you God knows what life on site must be like for you?!

 

[Leesparkykent]

Oh grow up and stop with the self pity will you. No one on here is calling you incompetent, no one is arguing the ---- with you to satisfy some kind of ego and no one is forming some kind of secret society to 'stick it' to the new members. All we have done is point out the potential dangers of giving out advice to people who shouldn't really be given it.

The only cage being rattled here is your own. Jesus, if you're this susceptible to throwing your toys out of the pram over someone online disagreeing with you God knows what life on site must be like for you?!

i pointed out that he'd given the OP a green light, and I haven't been on this forum long at all. He needs to stop wallowing, and just accept the fact his advice was inappropriate.