three phase transformer wiring

[FattyJr]

Hello out there.

This is a werid one I have never heard off before.

Just purchased a pair of 5 ton column lifts so I can work on my pick up. Anyway, i purchased the lifts and was told they was three phase ie 415v.

lifts were delivered and they had a 16a 5 pin red plug, no problem i thought. Plugged it in and got a BANG. Breaker tripped in the breaker box and on lift. Hummm

disconnected everything and opened the control box and found a sticker stating 110v three phase. Yea, 110v three phase. I have L1, L2 and L3 in the box with no netural.

Never heard of it so tried a google search and still got nothing on how or why.

So to attack the problem. I gotta buy/build a three phase transformer to go from 240v three phase to 110v three phase. I have read numerous site on wiring up three separate 240v to 110v in a delta style set up & also wiring an "open delta" setup that uses two single phase transformers.

Any ideas on how to do this? I have actually considered ripping out the wiring and redoing in proper three phase, but means a total rewire which I don't fancy at the moment.

Let me know, cheers john

 

[oxocube]

Are you sure its not got a 110volt control system? I've never seen or heard of 110v 3ph.

 

[malcolmsanford]

You won't have in the UK 3 phase 230/240v you will have 3 phase 400/415v and single phase 230/240volt.

Chances are these column lifts are either american or Asian and will be for a 220/208v 3 pahse 127/110v single phase system.

 

[Knobhead]

What is the voltage and current on the motor rating plate?
Is there a transformer in the control panel?
110V 3Ph is quite common. You will be better off with a 415/110V 3Ph transformer rather than trying to cobble together 3 separate units, you can run in to all kinds of problems with phase sequencing.

 

[FattyJr]

to answer the questions.

Yes the control panel is 110v 3 ph Everything in the panel states 110v 3 ph.

the motors on either column are marked 110v 3ph

The lifts are swiss as far as I can gather and have been used in the UK for a number of years as they were regularly serviced by a company called gemco.

As for my 3 phase supply, I know we call the 3 phase system 415v, but per phase it's 240v. Don't want to get into that argument about phasing.

What I can do is take a few pics and post them here for all to view

 

[oxocube]

regularly serviced by a company called gemco.

I would give gemco a ring.

 

[oxocube]

110V 3Ph is quite common.

Yeah, about as common as rocking horse s***.

 

[Knobhead]

Yeah, about as common as rocking horse s***.

I take it you’ve never worked in heavy engineering or construction then? It’s very common!

 

[FattyJr]

Considering wiring like this

Taken from Three-phase transformer circuits : POLYPHASE AC CIRCUITS

for delta to delta wiring

for Wye to Delta wiring which I am leaning towards

 

[Knobhead]

If you really want to go down the road of three separate transformers you’ll need 415V / 66V transformers connected as shown.

View attachment 7753

 

[Knobhead]

Using a delta connection for the 110V gives no protection for earth faults. Not recommended!

A ready made unit will be cheaper

 

[alex trician]

I reckon do as Tony says and get a 415/110v3 phase transformer. I have installed them in factories.

 

[Des 56]

Buy a genny with a 3 ph 110 volt output,simples

 

[FattyJr]

Just thought I would post this pic of one of the motors. I have been thinking about what tony has said and looking into some. I have spoken to some firms about a custom transformer and to be honest, they haven't got a clue what size transformer to make/supply. I am working on the plug on the unit was a 16a 3 phase plug so that would make it 4A a phase. I did a bit of a calculation and got 2.78 KVA total so if i get 3 x 1kva 415v to 66v. Another thing that springs to mind is would I need 415v OR 240V transformers since you only get 415v when you combine two phases, but 240v when you use one phase.

I maybe missing something or just had a brain fart.

Your thoughts please.

 

[mogga]

GIVE Gemco a ring before you do yourself some damage

 

[FattyJr]

GIVE Gemco a ring before you do yourself some damage

Rang Gemco and they are a typical big british company. As in NOT INTERESTED unless you have a big chequebook and want new equipment. They don't want to discuss equipment that they used to service even tho I asked them to service them when I have the electrical side sorted out. Might as well smash the original motors off and control circuits, then run a nice and simple two new individual motors and make up a new control box.

That's why I prefer to deal with american companies. Will ALWAYS try and help you out even if they don't sell you something

 

[mogga]

Maybe guy who sold you the set up hasnt given you the full set up ie Transformers control box OR he may have been having the same problem as you and has sold it to another mug >>You ( no offence BTW just banter)

 

[FattyJr]

Was commercial clearance and sold in lot numbers so you buy lot number XX as seen

Tis a bit of a bind, but I can afford to spend a little on the lifts because didn't pay a lot for them and they are ideal for what I need

 

[Knobhead]

A 4KVA 415/110V 3Ph transformer will give a bit of headroom for starting. The actual load is a tad over 2KVA but you need that bit extra for stating. That’s assuming both motors run together.

 

[FattyJr]

A 4KVA 415/110V 3Ph transformer will give a bit of headroom for starting. The actual load is a tad over 2KVA but you need that bit extra for stating. That’s assuming both motors run together.

You are correct tony. take a look at this pic. You can use these lifts in pairs, fours, sixes or eights. The power runs into one main control box then there is a link cable between each column. I have an early set where the spindles are drove by a chain and the motor hangs out the back inline with the column.

Still debating if I need 415v transformers or 230v transformers. can't get head straight due to hospital runs and 6 border collie pups biting my ankles

 

[vaughant]

Personally I'd swap to two 415 v 3 phase motors which I'm sure would be easy enough and sort the control out accordingly,if you ever go to sell it then,it's worth a lot more money as well as it's just plug in.
Where are you in the country?I maybe able to get you the motors from obsolete stuff we've got lying around where I work?

 

[vaughant]

Just been thinking about this again,definitely worth swapping to 415v IMO,as I'm sure at such low currents as the motors look tiny that you shouldn't even need to upgrade your cables and switchgear.
There's a good chance (but check) that the control circuit uses 110v stuff so a simple 240/110v transformer should sort that,you could use the phase&neutral off one of your incoming phases to get you 240,as your already on a 5 pin plug it would feed back through that.
Just a thought.

 

[FattyJr]

Personally I'd swap to two 415 v 3 phase motors which I'm sure would be easy enough and sort the control out accordingly,if you ever go to sell it then,it's worth a lot more money as well as it's just plug in.
Where are you in the country?I maybe able to get you the motors from obsolete stuff we've got lying around where I work?

Thanks for the offer. May have to look into that. These lifts are not going to be used that much as I already have a set of 3 ton scissor lifts in the garage but they are just too small for my truck. Truck weighs 3.6 ton confirmed by the scrap weigh bridge. All up weight with empty trailer (3 way tipper,I built) is 4.5 ton

Main problem I can see with motor change is I think the reduction gearbox on the nose of the motor is part of the motor. I am not 100% sure, I think i will have to drop a motor off and have a look.

 

[FattyJr]

 

[netblindpaul]

If you are working in a business venture it is doubtful that you can modify this machine and still comply with statute law.
Also, the motors are 110V for a reason as you have trailing flexes between columns, I see many of these in commercial vehicle garages.
They are this way for a reason.
Is the "machine" CE marked?
If so then to comply with the law you cannot modify it without re-CE marking it.
Mind looking at tha control box I doubt is is CE marked as it is such a shambles!
It may do though, on the face of it at least the colour codes seem correct.
You need to sort out the supply side to comply with the law unless you are not bothered.

 

[FattyJr]

If you are working in a business venture it is doubtful that you can modify this machine and still comply with statute law.
Also, the motors are 110V for a reason as you have trailing flexes between columns, I see many of these in commercial vehicle garages.
They are this way for a reason.
Is the "machine" CE marked?
If so then to comply with the law you cannot modify it without re-CE marking it.
Mind looking at tha control box I doubt is is CE marked as it is such a shambles!
It may do though, on the face of it at least the colour codes seem correct.
You need to sort out the supply side to comply with the law unless you are not bothered.

I can't see no CE markings anywhere.

I had a feeling the machine was 110v due to the mobile nature of the machine. I would rather try and work with what is already there as I can't see any reason why it shouldn't work. Like you say, I could just bodge something together and make it work, But I am not that kind of person. Would rather do it and do it once. As I said before, I am only going to be using the lift once in a while for my own truck because my scissor lifts are not rated for 3.6 ton. I am planning on doing this with my lifts



If you have seen these in the field, Can you tell me how they did it? Did they have a transformer on the wall ???

 

[silver surfer]

Do you know what damage has been done with applying 400 Volts?

 

[FattyJr]

Do you know what damage has been done with applying 400 Volts?

Yes, Both sets of breakers blew. The set in the garage distribution board and the breakers in the control box. Wiring has been checked and everything is good to go.

 

[FattyJr]

Well, I'm biting the bullet and going with my gut feeling. I am pulling the motors and control panels and proceeding to throw them in the bin. Going to convert to a nice and simple standard 415v set up.

Only problem I foresee is the nose of the motors are part of the reduction gearboxes. I have pulled one motor off and by the looks of it the motor shaft machined with the gear for the reduction box.

I have a plan what I am going to do and might involve a few hrs in the machine shop to sort it, but I'll sort it.

I will be starting a new thread regarding the control panels and I am in two minds on how to do it.

 

[netblindpaul]

I have not had chance to check the guy I know with s similar lift.

However, if you are going down this road then you must understand that it is doubtful that the machine can ever legitimately be used in a commercial undertaking of any sort unless you design it in compliance with the relevant standards, which will almost certainly call for 110V ph-ph motors...

What goes around comes around.

Why did you not just buy a transformer?

 

[Knobhead]

Surrender being the path of least resistance, that’s the way I’m heading. I think your being a fool and will end up throwing good money away.

PS. Please don’t kill, maim or generally injure anyone other than yourself!

 

[FattyJr]

Surrender being the path of least resistance, that’s the way I’m heading. I think your being a fool and will end up throwing good money away.

PS. Please don’t kill, maim or generally injure anyone other than yourself!

For your information TONY, I don't plan on killing anyone, maiming or injuring anyone. You jump to the conclusion I am going to bodge something together and run risks. You don't know me and you don't know how I plan to do it.

I have had a price for a 2kva transformer and they are talking in excess of £400+ vat and still not know if the rest of the controls will work. I can put on two brand new sealed motors plus all the controls + safety interlocks for less than that and KNOW it will work. All the other mains powered column lifts I have seen have been are 415v 3 phase but the controls are 24v

these lift Don't have to be commercially compliant, but they are for myself and they will exceed the required electrical safety. I don't spend money and think it will work, I spend money and KNOW it will work.