Bulk Workwear - Clothing Suppliers for the Whole Forum Network
This official sponsor may provide discounts for members

Discuss Treadmill problems again... in the Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

Welcome to ElectriciansForums.net - The American Electrical Advice Forum
Head straight to the main forums to chat by click here:  American Electrical Advice Forum

I first had issues about 6 months ago with my second hand treadmill tripping the ring part of the way into a session, since then I've sent off my controller board to treadmill doctor co uk. He repaired the board and sent it back after approximately a month.

Since then I've had the a dedicated circuit installed with a 16a RCBO so that if tripping occurs with the treadmill again, it will only effect a dedicated socket and not the ring main as well.

Unfortunately, a month into using the treadmill it's tripping the circuit after about 30 minutes of use. In college I learned of type C and type D RCDs and RCBOs that have different tripping dynamics to usual household type B breakers. Do you think one of these could prevent the tripping problem or is it likely to be something else?

Seems this is fairly wide spread problem having searched the interwebs...
 
Electrical2Go - Online Electrical Supplier
This official sponsor may provide discounts for members
S

Silly Sausage

16A RCBO fitted ...
Firstly you need to determine whether it's tripping on overload or Earth leakage.
 

James

-
Mentor
Arms
Supporter
Esteemed
Do you have any instructions?
They may well have details about the type of supply required.
My suspicion is that it has developed a fault.
 

DPG

-
Arms
Esteemed
Patron
Surely must be a fault. I can't believe a treadmill trips either on earth leakage or overcurrent on a 16A OCPD. As above, what do the manufacturer's instructions say. Is it supplied with a standard 13A plug?

Maybe worth you emailing the manufacturer as well.
 
T

Toneyz

My guess is it requires a C curve protective device. You have had an electrician come and install a new dedicated circuit for this equipment and I take it that you explained why you needed it so all factors could be taken into account.
 

telectrix

-
Mentor
Arms
Esteemed
all well and good talking about breakers, but what about the poor hamsters when the treadmill not work?
 

Lucien Nunes

-
Mentor
Arms
Esteemed
If it is for domestic use it should be designed to work on at most a B16 MCB or 13A BS1363 fuse and a 30mA RCD. If it does not, it is likely to be faulty or is of an unapproved design. But yes, is it tripping on overload or leakage?
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #9
It is supplied with a 13A plug, so I'd assume it's meant behave like any other household device - plug and play. It's a Roger Black Gold treadmill, i could only find a PDF of the Gold Plus version which is much newer and has MP3 playing abilities.

I chose to have the RCBO circuit installed and since 13 amp breakers aren't a thing, 16A seemed plenty. Also, i figured if it trips at least the house doesn't blackout.

Based on the time thing, eg the longer the treadmill is used under load - aka me:fearscream: plodding along on it. The more likely it is to trip. Although I haven't just left it running minus the load yet because that's not typically something one would do.

I'll pop off and try it though, see if that proves anything...
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #10
I vaguely remember industrial fridges tripping on RCDs? It was part of one of the year 3 modules (outfitting a hotel) and they were on a 16A MCB instead - correct me if I'm wrong but they had some sort of issue causing earth leakage i think.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #11
Tested the treadmill with no load for over an hour and no trip, will see if it trips today when i have a session later on.
 
Does it have a Euro lead like in diagram , is earth continuity measurable to anything. (akin to PAT testing it Class 1)
a) Swap out euro cable if it has one (suitably fused)
b) something weird like static build-up on a dry day !
Has a note about operating it on a mat !
 

Charlie_

-
Arms
The problem could be as simple as worn carbon brushes plus build up of carbon deposits.
Replace brushes and clean up commutator,etc.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #15
Does it have a Euro lead like in diagram , is earth continuity measurable to anything. (akin to PAT testing it Class 1)
a) Swap out euro cable if it has one (suitably fused)
b) something weird like static build-up on a dry day !
Has a note about operating it on a mat !
No idea why you think it has anything other than a standard UK fused plug, i haven't built this thing myself you know; it's wired in standard UK colours.

Interesting that it says to run it on a mat though? What sort of mat cos it's currently on carpet tiles, but it is mounted on rubber feet.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #17
The problem could be as simple as worn carbon brushes plus build up of carbon deposits.
Replace brushes and clean up commutator,etc.
It's a Leeson direct current permanent magnet motor, rated at 180 volts, 6.5 amps, 3800 RPM, 1.25 HP, continuous duty, encl: open, INS:F, AMB: 40°C

Roger Black Gold Medal Treadmill that was originally supplyed by Argos but the email address on it for support is defunct.

Found a sticker saying November 01 on it, so i suppose 2001 manufacturer date...

I can't see the brushes on it, seems like a closed unit that runs a belt driven mechanism.

If it's new motor time it's going to be fun getting it out.:eek:
 

Charlie_

-
Arms
You should be able to see a pair of black discs, 1 on each side of the motor.. Behind the discs will be where the brushes are hiding..
 

marconi

-
Mentor
Arms
Esteemed
I wonder if the treadmill is creating supply current disturbances which trip the RCBO because the motor - roller drive belt or the roller-moving conveyor is/are occasionally slipping with respect to each other creating juddering accelerations/decelerations of the motor. You might then examine the state of these components for signs of slipping, any wear and tear and make adjustments in their tension.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #21
You should be able to see a pair of black discs, 1 on each side of the motor.. Behind the discs will be where the brushes are hiding..
Underneath a circular plastic disc removed with a flathead screwdriver I've popped out the brush from the top of the motor. Looks like a reasonable amount of meat on it to me, what do you guys think?1560865984870-654625664.jpg
 
No idea why you think it has anything other than a standard UK fused plug,...........
The euro plug (actually a socket) would be the appliance end.
Much like a PC desktop ,making the lead replaceable if damaged.
If present it would be a place to have a poor connection,but yours is probably an earlier model with integral cable.
(Do check for damage where it enters grommet) .. The
kind of checks done by PAT testing if done thoroughly !
(carpet tiles -totally adequate)
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #27
The euro plug (actually a socket) would be the appliance end.
Much like a PC desktop ,making the lead replaceable if damaged.
If present it would be a place to have a poor connection,but yours is probably an earlier model with integral cable.
(Do check for damage where it enters grommet) .. The
kind of checks done by PAT testing if done thoroughly !
(carpet tiles -totally adequate)
O I C, Like a kettle lead (that's what I call them) for a computers and computer peripherals. Yeah, mine is integral and there doesn't seem to be any obvious signs of damage to it.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #28
i'd say that was 1/2 worn down. replace with new. take sharp edges off new ones with a fine file .
Is it the sort of thing you'll find on evil-bay??? A bit of dust came out with both of them and where they've been in contact with the motor they seem to to be smooth and rounded, no roughness. Had to turn the treadmill on it's side and remove the bottom cover to get at the other one.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #30
I think I’d have just gone out for a run by now. :cool:
Not in the current rainy conditions, one of the things a treadmill is good for if you have one that's working 100%. Strangely enough I got an hour out of it today without it tripping.
 
Last edited:

telectrix

-
Mentor
Arms
Esteemed
problem with going out for a run is that when you've had enough you still got to get back home. with a treadmill, all you have to do is fall off into the nearest armchair and get 'er indoors to fetch a brew or a beer.
 
S

Silly Sausage

problem with going out for a run is that when you've had enough you still got to get back home. with a treadmill, all you have to do is fall off into the nearest armchair and get 'er indoors to fetch a brew or a beer.
Even better, get a rowing machine, you're sat down and it doesn't knacker you're knees.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #35
When was the last time you lubricated the treadmill belt?


And here is a pictorial guide to the state of the commutator and brushes which might be useful to you in assessing the state of motor.

A couple of days ago actually, the treadmill dr guy sent a bottle of slipcoat lubricant and a syringe to apply it with, this is it's second treatment after the 1st 2 months ago. It was part of the board replacement deal.

Been considering buying an amp-meter clamp tester to see if the power spikes at any point during use, although my understanding is that you will need to put it around just 1 conductor at a time. Which means carefully removing the outer sheath unless there is another way?

So far all I have is a multimeter from lidl and checked continuity between plug pins and where the AC supply enters the controller board, that and 230v between line and neutral, which doesn't need to be tested really as it's clearly getting all the power it needs.
 
Last edited:

marconi

-
Mentor
Arms
Esteemed
Could you describe the circumstances when it 'never' trips and when it does trip the RCBO?

eg: Slow speed plod over a short time - no trip; high speed over a long period trips. Slow speed over a long time .... Medium speed over a short time/long time...

Could you buy a 3Amp and 5Amp fuse and put it in the plug and see what happens?

 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #37
I'm a slow plodder doing long stretches, well if an hour is long. I find it helps my back to loosen up, I've had a bad back forever but a treadmill session helps to stop seizing up.

I have access to 3a and 5a fuses in the electrical box, it'll be interesting to try out whatever your plan is with them, my thoughts are the treadmill won't start or will go very slowly. I'm willing to give it a try though!
 

Charlie_

-
Arms
I recommend setting up tables around the treadmill with beer on them..
Will be like going on a pub crawl within the safety of your own home :)
 

marconi

-
Mentor
Arms
Esteemed
How much do you weigh?

Swap the 13A fuse in the plug for a 5A and run it for an hour. Then use the machine as you would normally for an hour run on at least 5 occasions.

Then repeat the above with a 3A fuse in the plug.
 
Last edited:
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #42
I'm 18 stone, 5' 9" , a Virgo and trying and failing to improve myself. Still, Marconi's experiment sounds fun, I'll go find the fuses.
 

marconi

-
Mentor
Arms
Esteemed
Edtwozeronine: We are using the fusing characteristics of the 3A and 5A to provide information on the average current being drawn by the treadmill over a one hour period, viz:

Current In – The maximum value of current that the fuse link will carry continuously without deterioration under specified conditions.

Conventional Time – The time specified for which the fuse shall carry non-fusing current or operate within for fusing current. Conventional times are: 1 hour for ratings of 63A and below 2 hour for ratings above 63A and up to 160A 3 hours for ratings above 160A and up to 400A 4 hours for ratings above 40A

Conventional Fusing Current If – The value of current which causes operation of the fuse link within the ‘conventional time’ (usually 1.6 x In); previously known as “minimum fusing current”. Conventional Non-fusing Current (Inf) – The value of current which the fuse will carry for the conventional time without operating (usually 1.25 x In).

So, for the 13A fuse, 1.25 x 13 = 16.25A and 1.6 x 13 = 20.8A.
For 5A - 6.25A/8A
For 3A - 3.75A/4.8A

The thermal functionality of an MCB/RCBO is designed to trip after one hour when the average current through it is 1.45 x I, so for 16A mcb, 1.45 x 16 = 23.2A

See:

www.beama.org.uk/asset/A3738A16-B693-4354-9BA38AB49204773F/

and

 
Last edited:
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #46
So far just tested the treadmill with load (AKA me!) on a 3a fuse, it pinged off at the 24 minute mark at the RCBO in the garage. I'm pretty cream crackered after todays garden werk, so I'll try the 5a fuse tomorrow.

Beep tested the 3a fuse at 0.06 ohms, the saga continues!
 

marconi

-
Mentor
Arms
Esteemed
I noted that the motor turns easily and all rollers, etcetera are moving freely and the belt has been lubricated.

Have you changed the brushes yet?

My hypothesis is that the motor's insulation resistance is decreasing as it warms up, most markedly when the treadmill is on load (and a significant load at that :)).

As a result, the earth leakage current of the motor is increasing with time(temperature) and of course is added to the normal earth leakage of the EMI filter. I guess the motor controller is a PWM type since motor is a PM one.

It is observed that the RCBO does not trip when the treadmill is run unloaded - thus much decreased work by the motor, less Ohmic heating heat, less temperature rise, less motor earth leakage....total earth leakage does not then cause the the RCBO to trip.

When run hot or hotter than designed, a motor's insulation resistance can be expected to reduce over time.

By the by, there may be a secondary effect of high temperature causing the demagnetisation over its lifetime of the motor's permanent magnets - the result would be that a higher armature current would be required to create the same torque...thus more Ohmic heating.....

I think you are at the stage of asking a motor specialist to test out the motor.

 
Last edited:
I'm thinking you need some-one local with some "Insulation resistance kit" to investigate your black dust deposits ... "Don't inhale" - it's not good for lungs.
With keen eyesight may have some tracking happening, as currents vary ,and volts spike a bit higher.
(Strange substance found in early telephone microphones)

Marconi's what to check for images - were a good start.

-If 3A fuse survived a Tripping of power incident ,doesn't look like an overload.

Do the lights ever flicker in the building with any correlation to trip event ?
 

marconi

-
Mentor
Arms
Esteemed
DPG: I acknowledge your generous comparison, but I would prefer to be likened to DCI Gene Hunt. If you watched the TV series (Life on Mars and Ashes to Ashes) his deputy was the gorgeous Keeley Hawes, it was the 70s so no PC, he drove an Audi Quattro (when they were cool) and most of all he was consummate with the ad lib one-liners, viz:

 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #55
I managed a whole hour yesterday on the 5a fuse, i was expecting it to trip... What sorcery is this?
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #56
I noted that the motor turns easily and all rollers, etcetera are moving freely and the belt has been lubricated.

Have you changed the brushes yet?

My hypothesis is that the motor's insulation resistance is decreasing as it warms up, most markedly when the treadmill is on load (and a significant load at that :)).

As a result, the earth leakage current of the motor is increasing with time(temperature) and of course is added to the normal earth leakage of the EMI filter. I guess the motor controller is a PWM type since motor is a PM one.

It is observed that the RCBO does not trip when the treadmill is run unloaded - thus much decreased work by the motor, less Ohmic heating heat, less temperature rise, less motor earth leakage....total earth leakage does not then cause the the RCBO to trip.

When run hot or hotter than designed, a motor's insulation resistance can be expected to reduce over time.

By the by, there may be a secondary effect of high temperature causing the demagnetisation over its lifetime of the motor's permanent magnets - the result would be that a higher armature current would be required to create the same torque...thus more Ohmic heating.....

I think you are at the stage of asking a motor specialist to test out the motor.

Not yet changed the brushes governor! It's finding the right size that's the problem.17mm W by 6mm D by 14mm L the length being what it is worn down to, so no idea about the original length.

Guess I'll hacksaw off the earth pin if that's the boy giving trouble!:bomb:
 

marconi

-
Mentor
Arms
Esteemed
So, for the 5A fuse at least another 4 one hour sessions. And the same for the 3A fuse. Remember to run it first for an hour 'off load' before each session of running.

Alas, I am not infallible so could be completely off the mark.

Static Zap makes some good remarks on possible causes. It would helpful if you could look at the commutator and brushes and compare them to the guide I pointed you to.

I admire your willpower to use a treadmill - I found them mind numbing.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #60
I'm thinking you need some-one local with some "Insulation resistance kit" to investigate your black dust deposits ... "Don't inhale" - it's not good for lungs.
With keen eyesight may have some tracking happening, as currents vary ,and volts spike a bit higher.
(Strange substance found in early telephone microphones)

Marconi's what to check for images - were a good start.

-If 3A fuse survived a Tripping of power incident ,doesn't look like an overload.

Do the lights ever flicker in the building with any correlation to trip event ?
I think the dust was just a bit of carbon brush wear and tear, since the treadmill has it's own circuit - it's the only thing to trip these days! It used to be on the ring on a 32a rcbo, one of the reasons I wanted it to have it's own circuit. No more TVs, Computers or Sound Systems all going off without a moments notice.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #61
So, for the 5A fuse at least another 4 one hour sessions. And the same for the 3A fuse. Remember to run it first for an hour 'off load' before each session of running.

Alas, I am not infallible so could be completely off the mark.

Static Zap makes some good remarks on possible causes. It would helpful if you could look at the commutator and brushes and compare them to the guide I pointed you to.

I admire your willpower to use a treadmill - I found them mind numbing.
There's a sparky right across the road, I wonder if he'd have a look at it?

It'll be a long while until I've done all those sessions, guess the thread will sit open though...

The treadmill is a lot easier to use if you can watch YouTube while doing it, just stick on my "watch later" list and hours worth of entertainment! Yes, I went that far to make it appealing! Great for when it's raining too, no excuse not to get some amount of exercise!

The brushes and comutator look smooth as far as I can tell, the brushes smoothly rounded where they've been wearing on the commutator. No horrible scoring/scratching like in some of those pictures, although I can't tell without taking it apart if the brushes have dug grooves into the commutator, like some of the other pictures.

I found these brushes 10 pairs of potentially dubious quality brushes, what am I going to do with the other 9 pairs?
 
I think the dust was just a bit of carbon brush wear....
Apologies just me being cryptic - with the powder .
(I know toner is unhealthy..but less drastic than coal mining)
Damage may be from a previous over heating ,but the dust is part of your enemy.
..Little sparks migrating particle to particle -is what Tracking is all about..
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #65
Maybe so. The earth pin is part of the plug not its top.
To my relief I found out you can simply open the plug with a screwdriver and entirely remove the earth pin, that'll save a lot of hacksaw work!:tearsofjoy:

Now I just have to find a knitting needle to open those pesky shutters for the live and neutral to slot in! Thanks for pointing them out Big Clive!
 
Bulk Workwear - Clothing Suppliers for the Whole Forum Network
This official sponsor may provide discounts for members

Reply to Treadmill problems again... in the Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

CK Tools :) The professionals choice when it comes to Electrical Tools
This official sponsor may provide discounts for members
Top Bottom