Wiring bath room LED's and extractor fans

[driverman]

Hi, not been wiring for many years, doing a project for family (love job) and would appreciate some advice please , apart from don't do it!
Rea;y question is.....how to physically to the job to BS7671 standards. Owner has requested that the En-suites light switches are wall mounted outside of room which is fine. With LED's i could take supply L-N to L/SW and then onto each LED loop in system. in addition to that extractor fan required with time lag and to comply with manufactures instructions 3amp fuse required. Also would a 3 pole isolation switch for said fan be required also?
So basically in an ensuite....LEd lights and extractor fan switched from outside of room. Trying to install as neat as possible but without load of different accessories out side the door. Thanks

 

[richy3333]

RCD protection?
Bonding?
Do you need to notify this in England to LABC?

Some fan makes stipulate 3/1A fusing. If so use the Click triple pole unit with fuse holder.

 

[Richard Burns]

Just thought about it and using click as above I thought this would be not too bad and may meet most of the manufacturers, wiring regulations, building regulations requirements.
You would have double pole switching for supply, fused supply to 3A, light switch and isolator for fan in only a dual back box.
Should not be too bad to wire abut a bit busy perhaps.
Just a thought.

 

[driverman]

Would I actually require the double pole switch? I understand the 1 way switch for lights / fan and the 3 amp fuse to protect the fan. i propose installing the 3 pole isolation switch at high level but within hand reach standing on floor.

 

[davesparks]

Why put it at high level? They're an eyesore up there.

 

[Richard Burns]

Would I actually require the double pole switch? I understand the 1 way switch for lights / fan and the 3 amp fuse to protect the fan. i propose installing the 3 pole isolation switch at high level but within hand reach standing on floor.

Most extract fans in their instructions specify that there must be double pole isolation in the supply with a minimum 3mm contact gap. This could be covered by the main switch in the CU, but local isolation is generally easier to follow (and is what they actually mean, in general).

You could just as easily, if you want to make it difficult to isolate the fan, have a double gang plate for the isolator switch and two switches and a fuse in a triple gang plate at an accessible level.

 

[Engineer54]

Why do these fan manufacturers stipulate/call for a 3A fuse?? It can't be for the protection of the fan itself, as BS 1362 fuses are there for the protection of cable/cords. I wonder what these manufactures stipulate for our European cousins, because to the best of my knowledge, no such facility exists???

 

[telectrix]

it's called passing the buck, eng. no fuse, fan catches fire due to the fact that it's cheap tat, manufacturer wriggles out of responsibility.

 

[driverman]

Why put it at high level? They're an eyesore up there.

i agree, i'm trying to make all as unobtrusive as possible. Client does not want pull switches in bathrooms, therefore all accessories for lights / fan are to be sited outside bathroom. so DP as Richard /Burns has suggested. 3 amp fuse to protect fan and 1w light switch + 3 pole isolation switch. a lot for a bathroom.

 

[specs]

why don't you just buy a fan that doesn't require a 3a fused isolator sw.

 

[Engineer54]

i agree, i'm trying to make all as unobtrusive as possible. Client does not want pull switches in bathrooms, therefore all accessories for lights / fan are to be sited outside bathroom. so DP as Richard /Burns has suggested. 3 amp fuse to protect fan and 1w light switch + 3 pole isolation switch. a lot for a bathroom.

If you're client doesn't want pull switches, then tough, it all needs to be set into the wall!! It's his choice not yours, so what are you worrying about. Crack on and bash the back boxes in... lol!!

 

[Simlec]

Why do these fan manufacturers stipulate/call for a 3A fuse?? It can't be for the protection of the fan itself, as BS 1362 fuses are there for the protection of cable/cords. I wonder what these manufactures stipulate for our European cousins, because to the best of my knowledge, no such facility exists???

It is only for the UK that they are required 3amp fuse (Vent-Axia instructions on desk say UK only)
The only reason I can think off for a 3amp fuse was because many moon's ago the was some cases of 4" bathroom type fans catching fire due to poor maintenance. A charity as they were once better know starting with the letter N and ending with a C said a 3amp fuse supplying the fans may have prevented this as they were supplied via 5 fuse or 6amp MCB normally, and so the manufactures and local councils adopted the concept.

I have not tried but I think a small 12w ish bathroom fan would still catch fire before taking a 3amp fuse?

 

[Engineer54]

It is only for the UK that they are required 3amp fuse (Vent-Axia instructions on desk say UK only)
The only reason I can think off for a 3amp fuse was because many moon's ago the was some cases of 4" bathroom type fans catching fire due to poor maintenance. A charity as they were once better know starting with the letter N and ending with a C said a 3amp fuse supplying the fans may have prevented this as they were supplied via 5 fuse or 6amp MCB normally, and so the manufactures and local councils adopted the concept.

I have not tried but I think a small 12w ish bathroom fan would still catch fire before taking a 3amp fuse?

There you have it then, totally ignore any manufacturer instruction to include a fuse, if it doesn't need fuse protection in other countries, then it sure as hell don't need one in the UK either!! If the fan needs a protective device, it's down to the manufacturer to provide that protection, not the installation electrician, and i again point out that the BS1362 fuses are for cable/cord protection and NOT the appliance!!

Your probably right, i've seen some really crap bathroom fans over the years, most hardly worth the effort of installing...

 

[Simlec]

There you have it then, totally ignore any manufacturer instruction to include a fuse, if it doesn't need fuse protection in other countries, then it sure as hell don't need one in the UK either!! If the fan needs a protective device, it's down to the manufacturer to provide that protection, not the installation electrician, and i again point out that the BS1362 fuses are for cable/cord protection and NOT the appliance!!

Yes but in other countries the women have beards....

 

[telectrix]

There you have it then, totally ignore any manufacturer instruction to include a fuse, if it doesn't need fuse protection in other countries, then it sure as hell don't need one in the UK either!! If the fan needs a protective device, it's down to the manufacturer to provide that protection, not the installation electrician, and i again point out that the BS1362 fuses are for cable/cord protection and NOT the appliance!!

Yes but in other countries the women have beards....

wondered why they wore these:

 

[Engineer54]

Departing a little from the original thread, i was watching an Aussie TV programme on cable last night called ''The Block''. Where DIY contestants along with their various tradesmen are doing up individual apartments in a block of flats. Last night they were doing the bathrooms, and hey ho, low and behold ''ALL'' of the bathrooms had double socket outlets by the vanity sink, as well as the light and fan switches.... lol!!

So yet another country, that has no problem with electrical outlets etc, in it's bathrooms. It seems as i have pointed out many times now, it's only the UK that has draconian rules regarding bathroom electrical installations!! ...lol!!

 

[Engineer54]

There you have it then, totally ignore any manufacturer instruction to include a fuse, if it doesn't need fuse protection in other countries, then it sure as hell don't need one in the UK either!! If the fan needs a protective device, it's down to the manufacturer to provide that protection, not the installation electrician, and i again point out that the BS1362 fuses are for cable/cord protection and NOT the appliance!!

Yes but in other countries the women have beards....

So what ????????

 

[telectrix]

agreed. just come back from Turkey. new hotel. hair dryer hard wired next to sink and a socket outlet alongside.

 

[Simlec]

He/she was on TV other night (chat show) I still don't know what sex it is?

 

[telectrix]

howa bot this?

 

[wozz]

i agree, i'm trying to make all as unobtrusive as possible. Client does not want pull switches in bathrooms, therefore all accessories for lights / fan are to be sited outside bathroom. so DP as Richard /Burns has suggested. 3 amp fuse to protect fan and 1w light switch + 3 pole isolation switch. a lot for a bathroom.

So the isolation is outside the room where the equipment is, would the worker be in control of this switch? hard when its not in the same room, if not is it lockable?

If you want less accessories you could always fit a fan that doesnt require 3A fuse and use the devices in the fuseboard for isolation, 7671 happy, manuf instructions complied with. there will be some that claim you need local isolation for non skilled workers to maintain fan, how many people actually maintain fans and does it say in the manuf instructions that only qualified personnel to work on fan? if you cant lock off and prove dead i dont think you should be working on it.

there is also the 'need light when working on fan' argument although i have no idea where it comes from and holds no water with me.

 

[telectrix]

there is also the 'need light when working on fan' argument although i have no idea where it comes from and holds no water with me.


​must have been fitted by a plumber then.

 

[davesparks]

All of the fan isolators I have fitted in recent years have had an integral locking facility.

 

[telectrix]

mine too. a bloody screwdriver through the blades.

 

[wozz]

All of the fan isolators I have fitted in recent years have had an integral locking facility.

well many dont.

 

[driverman]

So the isolation is outside the room where the equipment is, would the worker be in control of this switch? hard when its not in the same room, if not is it lockable?

If you want less accessories you could always fit a fan that doesnt require 3A fuse and use the devices in the fuseboard for isolation, 7671 happy, manuf instructions complied with. there will be some that claim you need local isolation for non skilled workers to maintain fan, how many people actually maintain fans and does it say in the manuf instructions that only qualified personnel to work on fan? if you cant lock off and prove dead i dont think you should be working on it.

there is also the 'need light when working on fan' argument although i have no idea where it comes from and holds no water with me.

Are not all "isolation switches" situated outside typical sized bathrooms both in domestic and commercial situations?

 

[wozz]

Bit of a expansive question there, broadly speaking domestic yes commercial less so, my point was if its not lockable and outside the room the operative would not be in control of it, therefore if you wanted a lockable one you would be looking at the devices in the board. Such a mute point anyway as who would do it, fan isolator generally get used as a functional switch, and are incorrectly sited (if not lockable) for their original purpose. Do away with them.

 

[mhar]

In reply to the op it is possible to achieve fan isolation of all lives, fusing of both lines and have the bathroom light unaffected by fan isolation using just a dp sfcu and a dp light switch. The wiring is a bit 'busy'.
Supply into dp switch, two x two core cables to sfcu and one x three core from sfcu to fan. Connect as follows :- Supply l to dp light sw S1, n to wago in light sw back box. Using one of the two cores cables, light sw S1 to sfcu l supply, sfcu l load back to light sw S2. Second two core, light sw L2 to wago in sfcu back box, n from light sw wago to sfcu supply n. 3 core is connected to sfcu l load, sfcu n load and switched line to sfcu wago. The light is connected to dp light sw L1 and n to light sw n wago.
Description looks confusing but draw it out

 

[driverman]

why don't you just buy a fan that doesn't require a 3a fused isolator sw.

I think that"s what I'll do. I'm after 4inch (100mm) ceiling type fan, time delay,and IP65 as sited in en -suits. Any recommendations re fans?

As on ceiling...that would be classed as out side all zones?

 

[specs]

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