Within Competent Person Schemes

[andyelectric]

Hi, I would appreciate answers from those who have worked within a CPS.

From the 'Practical Solutions' thread some will have seen that I raised that it might be possible to effect change from within the schemes.

However, this is from the slightly naive vantage point of little knowledge of how their policy decisions are made.

Are there many electricians in positions of power within such schemes, or are they all managers with eyes only for greenbacks. Can policy change be effected from within.

Constructive comments from those in the know please. No rants.

 

[telectrix]

the schemes will never raise the bar. they'll lose members. it was the schemes that created the title of DI solely to boost their fat wallets.

 

[andyelectric]

the schemes will never raise the bar. they'll lose members. it was the schemes that created the title of DI solely to boost their fat wallets.

Tel, to be fair that's almost a rant as not backed up by info. What I am wondering is the make-up of these organisations. Someone must make policy decisions for them, if so can this be influenced.

 

[TJ Anderson]

The Part P schemes were, in my eyes a good thing, the only problem was the entry level was set way too low. However, overall, I think it has been financially a real boost for my business. Also, I do know some good DI's, most of which have gone on to become fully qualified electricians, the crap ones don't make it.

 

[andyelectric]

The Part P schemes were, in my eyes a good thing, the only problem was the entry level was set way too low. However, overall, I think it has been financially a real boost for my business. Also, I do know some good DI's, most of which have gone on to become fully qualified electricians, the crap ones don't make it.

It's the low entry level that needs influencing. But that is being discussed currently on another thread.

Do you have sny idea how scheme's policys could be influenced to raise the bar?

 

[TJ Anderson]

Yeah defiantly. Domestic Installer should = Fully Qualified Electrician Level (NVQ3), 2391 or current equivalent, plus a building regulation qualification, Sorted.

 

[andyelectric]

Yeah defiantly. Domestic Installer should = Fully Qualified Electrician Level (NVQ3), 2391 or current equivalent, plus a building regulation qualification, Sorted.

Not very constructive.

 

[D Skelton]

Do you have sny idea how scheme's policys could be influenced to raise the bar?

Yes. Remove the policies altogether by removing the schemes. End of.

 

[TJ Anderson]

Not very constructive.

That is constructive, I don't understand? If the the requirement was raised then everything else would fall into place.

 

[Guest77]

That is constructive, I don't understand?

Well perhaps I can help, Andy doesn't like anything which is opposite to his beliefs, so you are losing a battle trying to help him if you do not agree with his views.

 

[TJ Anderson]

Yes. Remove the policies altogether by removing the schemes. End of.

That is not going to happen IMO with the money NICEIC and chums are making. Raising the bar is more practical surely, and the schemes should get behind it, they could make money out of it training DI's to become Electricians.

 

[Guest77]

Post reported

Cheer up, here I have found you an avatar, no need to thank me for it.

 

[Anthony S]

Tel, to be fair that's almost a rant as not backed up by info. What I am wondering is the make-up of these organisations. Someone must make policy decisions for them, if so can this be influenced.

Ill tell you make up of these organisations, FREELOADERS who don't want to do a days work for a living.

 

[D Skelton]

Why the censorship of posts on here?

The secret police have been at it again!

 

[Guest125]

Cheer up, here I have found you an avatar, no need to thank me for it.

Ohhhh. I like that.

 

[Guest77]

Ohhhh. I like that.

right click on the picture, then save to your picture folder on your computer. then go into your profile and click on avatar, press on that and upload the saved picture, your username will complement the picture.

 

[trev]

Good luck influencing their policy Andy, you've got more chance of knitting custard. They will laugh at you.
The schemes know best, they are the guardians of electrical safety and they'll allow nothing and no one to threaten their gift that keeps on giving.

 

[D Skelton]

That is not going to happen IMO with the money NICEIC and chums are making. Raising the bar is more practical surely, and the schemes should get behind it, they could make money out of it training DI's to become Electricians.

Punching people in the head is wrong. When is the last time you heard anyone say "We know punching people in the head is wrong, but it happens, so let's just accept it and try to regulate it so that people don't get punched in the head too hard"???

If something is wrong, it is wrong. I will not support it, nor will I try to move the goal posts, I will try to end it.

 

[andyelectric]

Ok I get the point.

I'll give up on this thread then, as clearly it's just going to revert into a 3rd thread about the same thing.

If mods can end it please do.

 

[TJ Anderson]

Ohhhh. I like that.

Or You could use this one... Only joking mate

 

[Guest125]

Or You could use this one... Only joking mate

Only myself to blame. I left myself wide open. Lol

 

[TJ Anderson]

Punching people in the head is wrong. When is the last time you heard anyone say "We know punching people in the head is wrong, but it happens, so let's just accept it and try to regulate it so that people don't get punched in the head too hard"???

If something is wrong, it is wrong. I will not support it, nor will I try to move the goal posts, I will try to end it.

I don't see what is wrong with Part P other than the entry requirement not being that of a qualified electrician?

 

[D Skelton]

I don't see what is wrong with Part P other than the entry requirement not being that of a qualified electrician?

Nowt wrong with Part P at all. ONLY the requirement that certain jobs be notified. This is what the scams have latched on to, following closely behind are the blood suckling 'training' companies spewing out 5 week whizz kids left right and center!

God its getting boring having to try and explain this time and time again to people who stand to benefit from the current system!

The scams need to go, that is the end of it. Once they're gone, we might stand a chance of being able to rebuild this broken industry from the pile of rubble it currently occupies.

 

[Pete999]

Tel, to be fair that's almost a rant as not backed up by info. What I am wondering is the make-up of these organisations. Someone must make policy decisions for them, if so can this be influenced.

The previous post was nothing like a rant believe me if Tell was ranting you would know all about it, no he was just saying what the majority of us older hands know as being the truth.

 

[Guest125]

Once this all calms down and the multiple threads chill a bit I will start a new one where I will ask for a collective on what we can put into an open letter to the NICEIC, Elecsa, Napit and the goverment. In it I will put our concerns down with possible solutions. Why not try and make a change for the better. Let us not go off subject on this thread and save your ideas for a few weeks time.

 

[TJ Anderson]

Nowt wrong with Part P at all. ONLY the requirement that certain jobs be notified. This is what the scams have latched on to, following closely behind are the blood suckling 'training' companies spewing out 5 week whizz kids left right and center!

God its getting boring having to try and explain this time and time again to people who stand to benefit from the current system!

The scams need to go, that is the end of it. Once they're gone, we might stand a chance of being able to rebuild this broken industry from the pile of rubble it currently occupies.

So just up the qualification requirement and it would be sorted overnight. There is building regulation notification in place for many other trades too and I have no problem with that. Also, I am fully aware of the real state of our country and the electrical industry is way down on the urgency list. I have more work than I want, so it is having no detrimental effect on me.

 

[D Skelton]

Once this all calms down and the multiple threads chill a bit I will start a new one where I will ask for a collective on what we can put into an open letter to the NICEIC, Elecsa, Napit and the goverment. In it I will put our concerns down with possible solutions. Why not try and make a change for the better. Let us not go off subject on this thread and save your ideas for a few weeks time.

You're about two years behind fella. It's been done, they've been brought in front of a parliamentary committee to answer for their crimes and even then, after huge flaws being exposed in the way the scams are operating, the government still refused to act on any of the committee's suggestions. The fact is, there are too many brown en voles being passed around and many palms are being greased.

A large scale boycott is what is needed, failing that, the only thing unfortunately that will bring about the end of the scams is another Emma Shaw style death.

 

[D Skelton]

So just up the qualification requirement and it would be sorted overnight. There is building regulation notification in place for many other trades too and I have no problem with that. Also, I am fully aware of the real state of our country and the electrical industry is way down on the urgency list. I have more work than I want, so it is having no detrimental effect on me.

It's actually counter productive to my company as well. With the scams in place I stand to benefit hugely in ten years time considering we pretty much only do commercial and industrial work now. The sad thing is I actually care about the safety of the general public.

Upping the level of qualification will never happen as long as there are people who stand to benefit from the bar being as low as humanly possible.

Getting rid of the scams is the ONLY real option that will bring about change. Anything else is merely peeing in the wind.

 

[TJ Anderson]

It's actually counter productive to my company as well. With the scams in place I stand to benefit hugely in ten years time considering we pretty much only do commercial and industrial work now. The sad thing is I actually care about the safety of the general public.

Upping the level of qualification will never happen as long as there are people who stand to benefit from the bar being as low as humanly possible.

Getting rid of the scams is the ONLY real option that will bring about change. Anything else is merely peeing in the wind.

The Industrial sector will sort itself, if they have skills shortage they will need to train there own apprentices. Simple supply and demand. I myself do 80% domestic / 20% commercial. Domestic is my favourite work, I must be weird, I love the people I meet and enjoy working in homes. Part P should be detrimental to me in theory, but it simply is not, if anything, people know that there are half baked "electricians" now and keep hold of a good one like gold dust.

 

[Leesparkykent]

The Industrial sector will sort itself, if they have skills shortage they will need to train there own apprentices. Simple supply and demand. I myself do 80% domestic / 20% commercial. Domestic is my favourite work, I must be weird, I love the people I meet and enjoy working in homes. Part P should be detrimental to me in theory, but it simply is not, if anything, people know that there are half baked "electricians" now and keep hold of a good one like gold dust.

agreed, also these sort of customers are the ones who will not just go with the cheapest quote.

 

[Guest125]

You're about two years behind fella. It's been done, they've been brought in front of a parliamentary committee to answer for their crimes and even then, after huge flaws being exposed in the way the scams are operating, the government still refused to act on any of the committee's suggestions. The fact is, there are too many brown en voles being passed around and many palms are being greased.

A large scale boycott is what is needed, failing that, the only thing unfortunately that will bring about the end of the scams is another Emma Shaw style death.

Still should best ranting on here.

 

[Octopus]

Upping the level of qualification will never happen as long as there are people who stand to benefit from the bar being as low as humanly possible.

Getting rid of the scams is the ONLY real option that will bring about change. Anything else is merely peeing in the wind.

Not sure that either of these ideas will happen.

Raising the bar would make sense - but who's going to enforce that?

Getting rid of the schemes won't help either - there are so may chancers doing sparking already the situation simply won't change - in fact it could make thing worse!

So the status quo will continue....


Unless action is taken at the coal face then nothing will change..... and the same goes for pretty much all the trades - people cutting corners, bodging and scarpering.... the only "canny" people out their are the customers who do their research and identify trades people by word of mouth and recommendation.

Just saying

 

[D Skelton]

The Industrial sector will sort itself, if they have skills shortage they will need to train there own apprentices. Simple supply and demand. I myself do 80% domestic / 20% commercial. Domestic is my favourite work, I must be weird, I love the people I meet and enjoy working in homes. Part P should be detrimental to me in theory, but it simply is not, if anything, people know that there are half baked "eectricians" now and keep hold of a good one like gold dust.

Where do you live?! The Cotswolds?! Lol

Even down South where I am, I'm priced out of 90-95% of domestic work. The only real domestic work I do now is in the houses of the commercial clients I carry out work for. Normally London suburbs and large houses.

Standard day rate in my town is about £100-£150. I have a relative (ex domestic spark [retired now]) who 10-15 years ago wouldn't have got out of bed for less than £200. The problem is, in my town, the ratio of 5WWs to time served guys stands at about 70-30. The market is absolutely saturated with whizzers. Hence my decision to distance myself entirely from that market.

The trade is in dire need of overhaul, and that is from a public safety perspective, nothing more.

 

[andyelectric]

Not sure that either of these ideas will happen.

Raising the bar would make sense - but who's going to enforce that?

Getting rid of the schemes won't help either - there are so may chancers doing sparking already the situation simply won't change - in fact it could make thing worse!

So the status quo will continue....


Unless action is taken at the coal face then nothing will change..... and the same goes for pretty much all the trades - people cutting corners, bodging and scarpering.... the only "canny" people out their are the customers who do their research and identify trades people by word of mouth and recommendation.

Just saying

Yep. Gas safe didn't help me the other day when a chancer wanted to quote me for a new boiler. After a swift kick out of the house I ordered a new thermocouple off tinternet and in just over a day the magic gas fairy had sorted the problem. Try to do the right thing........

 

[GB.Kayak]

Hi, I would appreciate answers from those who have worked within a CPS.

From the 'Practical Solutions' thread some will have seen that I raised that it might be possible to effect change from within the schemes.

However, this is from the slightly naive vantage point of little knowledge of how their policy decisions are made.

Are there many electricians in positions of power within such schemes, or are they all managers with eyes only for greenbacks. Can policy change be effected from within.

Constructive comments from those in the know please. No rants.

Andy, please excuse my <rant> but I think that you and I are on a similar wavelength ... I think you need to go back and emphasise the first sentence ... I will do it for you!


HAS ANYONE WHO IS CURRENTLY A MEMBER OF THIS FORUM EVER WORKED WITHIN A CPS? If so, do you have any comment?


In Andy's defence, he is at least asking the right question but getting the 'dyed in the wool', 'same o same o' responses.

<RANT>


FACT: UK Industry is a hollow shell except in certain niche industries where the UK continues to innovate!


FACT: Demand for capable electricians remains in what is left of this industry and this will grow as experience levels are decimated by demographic issues, for which read population shifting towards old age, due perhaps to gender equality and the expectations of youth sold to them by marketing gurus! Unfortunately we are missing the real 'Elephant in the room', UK INDUSTRY IS A SHADOW OF ITS FORMER SELF! It will continue to decline unless the population ... and the government DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!


FACT: Eng54 has said elsewhere that the traditional demand in overseas markets, particularly the Middle East, for UK 'engineering excellence' is drying up ... for which READ HAS DRIED UP. As I said elsewhere we in the UK are expensive to maintain and our education system, particularly our universities have trained the trainers to service the industries of the world, starting in the Victorian era! They have now had several generations to develop the foundations of their industrial base and with population growth, growing affluence and outsourcing of our own manufacturing to them they have long since left us standing in the slow lane as we have given them the family silver and the legs to run away with it!


FACT: If you wish to make a difference to this geopolitical situation it is possible! The German and Japanese are testament to this post World War II.


FACT: Trotting out the same gripes and 'shut down the Electrical Trainee etc providers' will not get us anywhere as already stated!

<\RANT>


Now ... any answers?

 

[Guest125]

Where do you live?! The Cotswolds?! Lol

Even down South where I am, I'm priced out of 90-95% of domestic work. The only real domestic work I do now is in the houses of the commercial clients I carry out work for. Normally London suburbs and large houses.

Standard day rate in my town is about £100-£150. I have a relative (ex domestic spark [retired now]) who 10-15 years ago wouldn't have got out of bed for less than £200. The problem is, in my town, the ratio of 5WWs to time served guys stands at about 70-30. The market is absolutely saturated with whizzers. Hence my decision to distance myself entirely from that market.

The trade is in dire need of overhaul, and that is from a public safety perspective, nothing more.

I completely agree with you. We decided two years ago to completely pull out of the domestic sector. They will not pay our rates and our rates are high due to our insurances to work on the railway, at height, asbestos, 3 phase etc...

 

[Sintra]

Why the censorship of posts on here?

The secret police have been at it again!

All done with good justification

 

[Guest125]

All done with good justification

I think those who have posts deleted should be informed so they can attemp to see the error of their ways.

 

[andyelectric]

GBKayak is correct.

I asked a pretty specific question, and the thread was immediately hijacked.

No-one has provided any inside info to the schemes as yet, all that happened was that the 'practical solutions' chuntering has now moved over here.

 

[TJ Anderson]

Where do you live?! The Cotswolds?! Lol

Even down South where I am, I'm priced out of 90-95% of domestic work. The only real domestic work I do now is in the houses of the commercial clients I carry out work for. Normally London suburbs and large houses.

Standard day rate in my town is about £100-£150. I have a relative (ex domestic spark [retired now]) who 10-15 years ago wouldn't have got out of bed for less than £200. The problem is, in my town, the ratio of 5WWs to time served guys stands at about 70-30. The market is absolutely saturated with whizzers. Hence my decision to distance myself entirely from that market.

The trade is in dire need of overhaul, and that is from a public safety perspective, nothing more.

In fairness to yourself, I believe you employ others, so you have increased overheads and VAT. You will always be uncompetitive on labour. Daywork is also not a fair comparison as the amount done in a day varies between sparks. I am sole trader and that is all I want to be as I enjoy it, I have a large client base and if I have not took £200 day (All work priced) then I have had a bad day. Nearly all repeat custom and recommends these days.