Competent Persons Scheme

[Midwest]

Is this the one you’re looking for? Review of competent person self-certification schemes - GOV.UK - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/review-of-competent-person-self-certification-schemes

I have quickly read that document, and I think it refers to the broader management of the 'Competent Persons Self Certification Schemes', which includes ATTMA, Fensa. Hetas etc.

Having re read your OP, it would appear that is what you are researching into, and I, and perhaps others have concluded it was concerned with Part P Building regs, and related electrical CPS?

 

[Deleted member 106280]

I have quickly read that document, and I think it refers to the broader management of the 'Competent Persons Self Certification Schemes', which includes ATTMA, Fensa. Hetas etc.

Having re read your OP, it would appear that is what you are researching into, and I, and perhaps others have concluded it was concerned with Part P Building regs, and related electrical CPS?

I’m interested in the whole area really. Obviously the CPS is only a small part of building regulations, but there are clearly significant issues with the current processes and really I’m trying to identify potential areas of improvement for any of this, but in particular the administration side of it. I’ve also posted on the gas safety register forum to see what their thoughts are, but they seems to have fewer concerns than on this forum so perhaps there are more issues with Part P...

It does seems from some of the posts that the openness and trust with the public may be issues that need addressing at the moment though, and between the two forums it seems proper licensing is a potential path some professionals would like to see?

 

[Midwest]

I expect you've picked up on the issues.

Persons who have very little electrical experience or expertise can register with a scheme.

The scheme fees are expensive for what is provided.

The general public seem unaware of scheme membership, or actually don't care.

There seems precious little policing of the schemes, both of poor workmanship or preventing non registered work (when required or not approved via other routes) being carried out.

Then there is the issue of competent electricians, who are not registered being unable to carry notifiable work, without considerable cost or complication.

Edit; I note from that vid, that gas safe are assessed every 5 years, whereas electricians require an annual assessment. Would be interested in the gas safe thread, do you have a link?

 

[Deleted member 106280]

I expect you've picked up on the issues.

Persons who have very little electrical experience or expertise can register with a scheme.

The scheme fees are expensive for what is provided.

The general public seem unaware of scheme membership, or actually don't care.

There seems precious little policing of the schemes, both of poor workmanship or preventing non registered work (when required or not approved via other routes) being carried out.

Then there is the issue of competent electricians, who are not registered being unable to carry notifiable work, without considerable cost or complication.

Edit; I note from that vid, that gas safe are assessed every 5 years, whereas electricians require an annual assessment. Would be interested in the gas safe thread, do you have a link?

The link is here: Registration and Notification Process - https://www.ukplumbersforums.co.uk/threads/registration-and-notification-process.100338/#post-971642

It appears that it is more down to the membership organisations than regulations, which perhaps is not the way to go. Do you think a relatively open system, which lists all jobs that have been completed to building regulation standards (whether from CPS notification or building regulation checks) can be checked by the public and the local authorities would be an improvement? Perhaps this would allow better auditing/policing of schemes with a more centralised view?

Do the schemes give you a breakdown of what your membership fee pays for? From what I've seen, it's about £500 a year for most schemes? If the schemes allow those with little experience and expertise in a scheme, do you think this is why there are more regular assessments in your industry?

It does seem odd as well that you can sell a house (from personal experience) without the right certification and just get liability insurance to cover it rather than requiring a check or something turns the whole safety aspect into a civil/financial matter.

 

[Midwest]

The link is here: Registration and Notification Process - https://www.ukplumbersforums.co.uk/threads/registration-and-notification-process.100338/#post-971642

It appears that it is more down to the membership organisations than regulations, which perhaps is not the way to go. Do you think a relatively open system, which lists all jobs that have been completed to building regulation standards (whether from CPS notification or building regulation checks) can be checked by the public and the local authorities would be an improvement? Perhaps this would allow better auditing/policing of schemes with a more centralised view?

Do the schemes give you a breakdown of what your membership fee pays for? From what I've seen, it's about £500 a year for most schemes? If the schemes allow those with little experience and expertise in a scheme, do you think this is why there are more regular assessments in your industry?

It does seem odd as well that you can sell a house (from personal experience) without the right certification and just get liability insurance to cover it rather than requiring a check or something turns the whole safety aspect into a civil/financial matter.

Breaking your points down by paragraph;

As someone has already said, you can check notifications on the local building control web site. But that is for notifiable work, which in England is now restricted to new CU's, new circuits & work within zones in special locations. So other work can be completed without reference to lbc.

There's no breakdown of costings. I do use my schemes technical support and online certification (small fee for each cert etc). One of the schemes - Stroma - is offering cheaper fees, but the others have not followed suit. Perhaps if we all did, it would have an impact. There's more to that argument, on who to use.

If you recall the Hips packs or whatever they were called required some certification, that got binned in 2010.

Good luck with your course.

 

[peterhyper]

Breaking your points down by paragraph;

As someone has already said, you can check notifications on the local building control web site. But that is for notifiable work, which in England is now restricted to new CU's, new circuits & work within zones in special locations. So other work can be completed without reference to lbc.

There's no breakdown of costings. I do use my schemes technical support and online certification (small fee for each cert etc). One of the schemes - Stroma - is offering cheaper fees, but the others have not followed suit. Perhaps if we all did, it would have an impact. There's more to that argument, on who to use.

If you recall the Hips packs or whatever they were called required some certification, that got binned in 2010.

Good luck with your course.

Stroma might offer cheaper fees, but you have to keep chasing them for customers certificates so not worth the few pennies saved.

 

[peterhyper]

Breaking your points down by paragraph;

As someone has already said, you can check notifications on the local building control web site. But that is for notifiable work, which in England is now restricted to new CU's, new circuits & work within zones in special locations. So other work can be completed without reference to lbc.

There's no breakdown of costings. I do use my schemes technical support and online certification (small fee for each cert etc). One of the schemes - Stroma - is offering cheaper fees, but the others have not followed suit. Perhaps if we all did, it would have an impact. There's more to that argument, on who to use.

If you recall the Hips packs or whatever they were called required some certification, that got binned in 2010.

Good luck with your course.

Stroma might offer cheaper fees, but you have to keep chasing them for customers certificates so not worth the few pennies saved.

 

[Sparkingmad]

I still think part p didn’t go far enough, general members of public can walk into B&Q, Homebase, Screwfix and buy cable, C/U, back boxes sockets switches everything you need to wire a property and don’t have to show any knowledge or qualification to obtain the materials. Like wise I can go and buy a gas boiler pipe and fittings without showing I’m qualified to install it. In fact I can mount the boiler do all the pipe work on the water side but not touch the gas as that is linked to a GC code. Get a plumber in to connect it pressure test system, then he plugs in his flue and gas analyser prints out the results staples it to warranty card registers it job done. We as competent conscientious electricians have to undertake far more testing and certification.
Yet I hear it a lot from DIYers who won’t undertake plumbing as they see it as a specialist trade yet are happy to undertake electrical work! When questioned why and more importantly told if you don’t solder or tighten that joint properly it won’t necessarily kill you, you will have water leaks but hey you can see those, yet you are happy to work on electrics that you can’t see, can’t always hear, can’t smell, but if you touch it, it can kill you!
Yes it can be argued that there are bad sparks out there but there are good ones too that will go the extra bit to help. If a home owner decides to put in extra sockets will they test it issue a cert register it? No they will worry about it later when they come to sell. Likewise if they don’t do it but know a sparks who works for a company but isn’t registered himself who will do it for some beer money instead of a registered approved sparks who will do it at a higher price to pay his taxes, registration fees and issue all certs, who they going to go for? Again it’s a matter of educating public, enforcing the requirements, and stopping people from buying the products. You can’t go a pharmaceutical company and buy all the ingredients to make prescription drugs for yourself at home to keep the costs down.

Rant over going to take some more homemade happy pills

 

[Deleted member 26818]

You can though, go out and buy some spanner’s to adjust the brakes on your car.
You can also buy tobacco and papers to make your own cigarettes, or all the stuff needed to brew your own beer.

 

[Sparkingmad]

You can though, go out and buy some spanner’s to adjust the brakes on your car.
You can and when you crash because your brakes failed and the police investigate if it’s serious you could get prosecuted. It’s like the MOT on your car once you leave garage it’s no guarantee your car is safe to be on the road.
Unlike when you certify an installation under Part P which your guaranteeing for years.

I can go out and buy a speed boat or jet ski and don’t have to have a license to use it unlike a car or motorbike.

You can also buy tobacco and papers to make your own cigarettes, or all the stuff needed to brew your own beer.

And your point is?

 

[UNG]

You can though, go out and buy some spanner’s to adjust the brakes on your car.

After having the brakes on a work vehicle checked by a main dealer many years ago only to find the following day they totally failed nearly causing me to crash I do it myself now, although my dad was and both my brothers are mechanics and from a very early age my dad showed me how to repair vehicles
I don't like to trust my vehicles repairs to other people

 

[Deleted member 106280]

Surely a more effective level of accountability is what’s needed for these kind of situations then? Where certified/registered competent people are held to account if their work is found to be below standard?

 

[Deleted member 26818]

And your point is?

Is it really not obvious?
Over 1000 deaths per year caused by road traffic accidents.
Over 7000 deaths per year caused by alcohol.
Over 80,000 deaths per year caused by smoking related illnesses.
Less than 50 a year caused by electricity, and most of those are work related.
How many of those deaths do you believe are caused by non-registered electricians?

 

[Midwest]

Is it really not obvious?
Over 1000 deaths per year caused by road traffic accidents.
Over 7000 deaths per year caused by alcohol.
Over 80,000 deaths per year caused by smoking related illnesses.
Less than 50 a year caused by electricity, and most of those are work related.
How many of those deaths do you believe are caused by non-registered electricians?

So how can we prevent those deaths (miniscule by comparison?) of those deaths caused by incompetent persons carrying out electrical work.

For the most part, it seems we can exclude commercial or industrial work, as companies tend to know an imbecile when they see one, just domestic field, where money seems to be the overriding factor, by some members of joe public it would seem.

 

[Phil Thompson]

I don’t necessarily agree that money is the factor as opposed to making the end user think they’re getting a bargain.

I’ve seen a guy go on Facebook to a mothers group with around 70,000 members and offer a supposed 20% off and after discount he’s between 50-100% more expensive than me.

These women are falling all over him and recommending him left right and centre too. Yet a quick look at a photo of a CCU he did for one of them shows a BG split board with the layout from right to left of Main Switch, RCD, RCD, MCBs.

So entire property is obviously on 1 RCD whilst the other sits doing nothing. A young lad obviously just out of his time.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

So how can we prevent those deaths (miniscule by comparison?) of those deaths caused by incompetent persons carrying out electrical work.

Just off the top of my head, how about not allowing such persons from being registered as competent?

 

[Midwest]

Just off the top of my head, how about not allowing such persons from being registered as competent?

Hardly seems worth the effort, if no ones being hurt by incompetent work.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Hardly seems worth the effort, if no ones being hurt by incompetent work.

Not sure if Emma Shaw and her family would agree?
Of course the £1000 fine dished out to the QS who signed off on the installation at her flat, has probably been made more diligent.

 

[Midwest]

Hardly seems worth the effort, if no ones being hurt by incompetent work.

Not sure if Emma Shaw and her family would agree?
Of course the £1000 fine dished out to the QS who signed off on the installation at her flat, has probably been made more diligent.

I was trying to sarcastic with my post, your posts have confused me.