Working live

[cogsy]

How many sparks would work in a square D KQ 3phase DB board if it was LIVE i was putting a new mcb in a live DB and it blown the MCCB at section board i tested between phases and there was no polarity between any conductors switched the MCCB and it tripped again
WHAT COULD OF HAPPENED

 

[telectrix]

pilot error.

 

[Risteard]

How many sparks would work in a square D KQ 3phase DB board if it was LIVE i was putting a new mcb in a live DB and it blown the MCCB at section board i tested between phases and there was no polarity between any conductors switched the MCCB and it tripped again
WHAT COULD OF HAPPENED

What was the prospective fault current at the DB?

 

[Marvo]

I don't fully understand what happened. I got that you replaced an MCB on a live DB but I don't understand the part about no polarity.

 

[westward10]

What was the prospective fault current at the DB?

None at the moment

 

[Pete999]

pilot error.

See there you go again

 

[telectrix]

i watch too many aircraft crash investigations on nat. geo. that and killer tanks. drives 'er indoors mad coz her idea of living on the edge is emmeroids and constipation street.

 

[Pete999]

i watch too many aircraft crash investigations on nat. geo. that and killer tanks. drives 'er indoors mad coz her idea of living on the edge is emmeroids and constipation street.

Same as my Mrs those two and the Cockney crap on BBC1

 

[Rpa07]

You should be in advertising Pete!

Same as my Mrs those two and the Cockney crap on BBC1

 

[Risteard]

None at the moment

LOL. My point was just that if high fault levels are present then the potential risk of explosion when fitting devices into a live DB may render this a much more dangerous practice than people assume at first glance. Obviously this DB may be further downstream of the origin (we haven't really had any answers yet) but live working like this really is to be avoided - and not just to comply with Health & Safety law!

 

[The Ghost]

Shorted some cables and they went into melt-down, but working live? Hope you are getting 3k a day.

 

[westward10]

LOL. My point was just that if high fault levels are present then the potential risk of explosion when fitting devices into a live DB may render this a much more dangerous practice than people assume at first glance. Obviously this DB may be further downstream of the origin (we haven't really had any answers yet) but live working like this really is to be avoided - and not just to comply with Health & Safety law!

Not quite sure how he managed it on a KQ board don't they all snap into the busbars, thought it would be quite difficult.

 

[LeeH]

Think so, the stab lock type.

Horrible boards.

 

[Andy-1960]

The HSE look on live working as a definite no no. If anything goes wrong you're in court unless you have a very good excuse. I had a discussion with an HSE inspector about working live, he asked when I would consider it.. at the time we were working at Ford in Dagenham on their effluent treatment plant.. a 24/7 process.. if we stopped the effluent plant it would discharge raw effluent into the local water courses, so I gave this as an example..The HSE guys response.. no excuse.. one life or 10,000 fish! So he was basically saying turn it off and face the consequences from the environment agency!!. So the upshot is turn it off!

 

[StephenRowley]

Surely the correct response is to pit in temporary measures to prevent contamination of water courses while work is done

 

[Andy-1960]

Not really an option, effluent plant was huge!

 

[DPG]

Lots of buckets?

 

[David M]

The HSE look on live working as a definite no no. If anything goes wrong you're in court unless you have a very good excuse. I had a discussion with an HSE inspector about working live, he asked when I would consider it.. at the time we were working at Ford in Dagenham on their effluent treatment plant.. a 24/7 process.. if we stopped the effluent plant it would discharge raw effluent into the local water courses, so I gave this as an example..The HSE guys response.. no excuse.. one life or 10,000 fish! So he was basically saying turn it off and face the consequences from the environment agency!!. So the upshot is turn it off!

The problem with the HSE is that they work to conditions that on paper are black & white. If you were to work live in this situation then a more sensible approach is to do a thorough risk assessment. Taking in to account all measures to ensure as much safety as practically possible. You could also argue that your own personal risk is your own responsibility and that its your life to gamble. But I guess you cannot put a price on a life, though insurance companies do

 

[polo1]

The EAWR makes clear the conditions to be met, if we want to work live. Sad truth is many electricians are put under pressure to work live either by customers or employers. Some of us choose to do so as a "short cut", but we should be under no illusion, unless we have documented our live working & met EAWR, if anything goes pear shaped we are well and truly in the s**t.

 

[Pete999]

For my 5 pennys worth, your client says "oh no can't switch any thing off" tell them that you are sorry but you can't d what they ask. Ask them what they would do if someone asked them to do something that, lets be honest is life threatening, would they do it? not bloody likely. if it's not life and limb, walk away, think of your Family, the client wont pay your mortgage, or your Children's up bringing, your car loan, no they will just carry on as if nothing has happened, I have been there, not even worth contemplating.

 

[Andy-1960]

The problem with the HSE is that they work to conditions that on paper are black & white. If you were to work live in this situation then a more sensible approach is to do a thorough risk assessment. Taking in to account all measures to ensure as much safety as practically possible. You could also argue that your own personal risk is your own responsibility and that its your life to gamble. But I guess you cannot put a price on a life, though insurance companies do

That is exactly what we did, we risk assessed it and put measures in place to minimise danger.. job went sweet... and yes you are 100% correct, the HSE are very black and white.

 

[Pete999]

That is exactly what we did, we risk assessed it and put measures in place to minimise danger.. job went sweet... and yes you are 100% correct, the HSE are very black and white.

Glad it went well, this time????

 

[telectrix]

for sale.... full set of electrician's VDE tools. never goung to werk live again..... NOT.

 

[Bobster]

Glad it went well, this time????

Come on now Pete, you telling me you haven't got the experience and knowledge to fit an MCB ina dist board live if it meant switching down a 24hr factory to do so dead.

Yes, dead working is always the number one option. There's a time and place for live working also, so long as the person doing it knows how to do it in a safe methodical manner, using the correct tools and experience.

 

[Andy-1960]

So when would you consider working live Pete?

 

[Andy-1960]

BTW, I do not endorse working live, in fact the exact opposite, it must and is an absolute last resort

 

[Pete999]

Come on now Pete, you telling me you haven't got the experience and knowledge to fit an MCB ina dist board live if it meant switching down a 24hr factory to do so dead.

Yes, dead working is always the number one option. There's a time and place for live working also, so long as the person doing it knows how to do it in a safe methodical manner, using the correct tools and experience.

Oh is that what you call working live nowadays, yes of course I have fitted an mcb in a live db, working live to me is playing with live bits in busbars etc

 

[Pete999]

So when would you consider working live Pete?

Well if putting a new MCB in a db without switching Off then most days I would say, but what is working live, you can't fault find in some cases without live lekky floating about. I suppose there are are differing descriptions of live working.

 

[Rpa07]

That is exactly what we did, we risk assessed it and put measures in place to minimise danger.. job went sweet... and yes you are 100% correct, the HSE are very black and white.

Black and White!

Well if putting a new MCB in a db without switching Off then most days I would say, but what is working live, you can't fault find in some cases without live lekky floating about. I suppose there are are differing descriptions of live working.

Grey!

 

[telectrix]

where's brown gone? or is that the colour reserved for the underpants when something goes bang.

 

[Bobster]

Oh is that what you call working live nowadays, yes of course I have fitted an mcb in a live db, working live to me is playing with live bits in busbars etc

Although technically it is working live, fitting an MCB wouldn't bother me.

I have in the past drilled and tapped live bus bars. That is what I would consider live working. We followed a strict procedure, and had proper tools and equipment.

 

[David M]

I have in the past drilled and tapped live bus bars. That is what I would consider live working. We followed a strict procedure, and had proper tools and equipment.

Brave man!

 

[David M]

Grey!

Fifty Shades?

 

[Bobster]

Brave man!

Not really, there was a very strict documented procedure in place. No different to line jointers.

 

[Andy-1960]

FYI, fitting an MCB into a DB is classed as working live, an electrician friend of mine got seriously hurt doing just this, all down to a faulty breaker which blew up in his face as he fitted it.
The HSE got involved and said there was no reason why the board should not have been switched off to carry out the work. His company got fined and he has the scars on his face and hands.
As with all accidents, its the unexpected that gets you..

 

[7029 dave]

Although technically it is working live, fitting an MCB wouldn't bother me.

I have in the past drilled and tapped live bus bars. That is what I would consider live working. We followed a strict procedure, and had proper tools and equipment.

I have done just that too, not today, it is just not worth it. HS would have a field day.

 

[rhitey]

Oh memories
Going back a bit here but I remember one wonderful occasion fitting a 3 phase MCB in a KQ board and the damn thing just wouldn't click in so in that time honored tradition I decided to give it a little shove.
Yep it went then, straight in too far and shorted out on the metal panel behind.
Woke me up I can tell you.

 

[telectrix]

Oh memories
Going back a bit here but I remember one wonderful occasion fitting a 3 phase MCB in a KQ board and the damn thing just wouldn't click in so in that time honored tradition I decided to give it a little shove.
Yep it went then, straight in too far and shorted out on the metal panel behind.
Woke me up I can tell you.

you should have used a smaller hammer.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Live working hmmm, no more measuring Ze and Zs.
Ze by enquiry and Zs by calculation.

 

[Andy-1960]

you should have used a smaller hammer.

No.. one with a longer handle!!!

 

[Andy-1960]

FYI, fitting an MCB into a DB is classed as working live, an electrician friend of mine got seriously hurt doing just this, all down to a faulty breaker which blew up in his face as he fitted it.
The HSE got involved and said there was no reason why the board should not have been switched off to carry out the work. His company got fined and he has the scars on his face and hands.
As with all accidents, its the unexpected that gets you..

Why do I get a dumb rating for this???? Please remove

 

[polo1]

Why do I get a dumb rating for this???? Please remove

Eeeek, sorry mate, I was trying to agree with you. Fat finger syndrome on an iPhone. Should now be changed!!!!!

 

[Rpa07]

How fat are your fingers @polo1? There's 2" between like and the other! It's certainly fiddly on an I phone, sometimes it takes 5 goes to get it right!
Is that how you spell 'goes'? You judge but careful to not press the dumb button! sausage fingers!

 

[telectrix]

i always work live. can't see me doing the job if i'm bloody well dead.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Are zombies entitled to a living wage?

 

[polo1]

How fat are your fingers @polo1? There's 2" between like and the other! It's certainly fiddly on an I phone, sometimes it takes 5 goes to get it right!
Is that how you spell 'goes'? You judge but careful to not press the dumb button! sausage fingers!

Lol! Have to say I'm still struggling with parts of the "new" site - must be getting to the age where adapting to change is getting more difficult.
PS why are my emojis not appearing in posts?????

 

[Specialist]

Have that problem sometimes as well when using Android tablet. If you press space bar after typing, then pick an emoji it usually comes up.

 

[telectrix]

Are zombies entitled to a living wage?

only if they work in a dying trade.

 

[rhitey]

No.. one with a longer handle!!!

Hey hey come on now who said anything about a hammer?
Just thumped it with me hand
Hammer would've been next if that hadn't worked :-D

 

[Jim Gyure]

I had one bad experience with a co-worker while working live on a job. Since then I've worked odd hours on jobs where they wanted me to work live just to avoid it when possible. I typically will only work live if I'm working alone and no one else can complicate the process.