Competent person and EICR

[TaffyDuck]

I`ve just had my annual coffee drinking exercise otherwise known as Part P assessment.

Obviously we discussed the weather, the price of fish and the new regs. No worries there.

One thing that my assessor did say however was that as of next year an electrician would need to prove his competence PRIOR to carrying out an EICR. According to him at least, as of 2016 only those electricians who hold CG 2391 or its new equivalent will be able to carry them out.

It will no longer be OK to just say you are competent, you will have to prove it.

Could be interesting, assuming he`s right,for those of us with 2391.

 

[spark 68]

Why would you currently need PI insurance for that? Pi insurance is for design or advice that may be incorrect.

Nope, you need it for providing professional advice/reports etc. aka EICRs

 

[Anthony S]

Why would you currently need PI insurance for that? Pi insurance is for design or advice that may be incorrect.

Because your giving an opinion, I've had it for years.

 

[Guest125]

Because your giving an opinion, I've had it for years.

Maybe splitting hairs but I would not call an EICR my opinion. It is a report on the condition. Definitely not my opinion.

 

[ruston]

I have been knocked back by two insurance companies recently who will ONLY accept NICIEC approved contractors. No amount of talking to them made any difference, one of them would not accept new business unless one(from nic) was already current. To be fair this needs changing.

As regards only accepting 2391 , this is a recipe for disaster too, as a lot of the schemes run their equivalent exams , I believe the EAL do too. What is going to happen when the 2391 holders are all gone lol? Surely the must accept the new equivalent .

 

[Guest125]

I can understand if your were designing emergency lighting or fire alarm installation PI insurance would be essential. But for testing surely PL is what is required?

 

[Anthony S]

Maybe splitting hairs but I would not call an EICR my opinion. It is a report on the condition. Definitely not my opinion.

Opinion = Assessment

 

[spark 68]

I can understand if your were designing emergency lighting or fire alarm installation PI insurance would be essential. But for testing surely PL is what is required?

For testing and EICs PL yes, for providing written reports/advice then PI is required

 

[Guest125]

For testing and EICs PL yes, for providing written reports/advice then PI is required

Agreed. Not required for testing as I said.

 

[baldsparkies]

jib card or no electrical work would be agood starting point for me

A lot of sparkies complain about how difficult it is to get a JIB card.
Surely that's the point though.
If you have to meet certain criteria and no exceptions you will help sort competence within the trade out.
Its not foolproof but its going in the right direction imho and that includes the 2391 cus it all helps to stop Electrical Trainee getting on the band wagon.
I have even noticed that the facilities managers in a small number of large companies are insisting on seeing operatives JIB gold cards before being let loose on there installations.
And that's regardless of the big shiny van all labelled up with its nice company logo and NICEIC sticker on the side.
Good for them I say.

 

[spark 68]

Agreed. Not required for testing as I said.

But for providing EICRs you do need PI, also a lot of DIs are not insured for three phase which I will bet they are not aware of

 

[ruston]

But for providing EICRs you do need PI, also a lot of DIs are not insured for three phase which I will bet they are not aware of

Or working with flame, I'ts a minefield.

 

[Anthony S]

People hide behind the NIC logo they own/run a company are not qualified and get some mug to become their QS and more a less front the company.

At least holding a JIB ticket with all your papers your never be out of work and can always earn a living.

 

[Guest125]

But for providing EICRs you do need PI, also a lot of DIs are not insured for three phase which I will bet they are not aware of

Correct me if I am wrong but we are told by the NIC not to provide advice as part of the EICR. It should only be a report on what the installation is. So, you should not write "recommend a re-wire" or anything like that. Points such as "socket within the hall is broken and has exposed conductive parts".

No advice should be on that report.

The advice would form part of the quotation/design that follows after the report.

 

[Guest125]

People hide behind the NIC logo they own/run a company are not qualified and get some mug to become their QS and more a less front the company.

At least holding a JIB ticket with all your papers your never be out of work and can always earn a living.

The QS must be a full time employee.

 

[spark 68]

Correct me if I am wrong but we are told by the NIC not to provide advice as part of the EICR. It should only be a report on what the installation is. So, you should not write "recommend a re-wire" or anything like that. Points such as "socket within the hall is broken and has exposed conductive parts".

No advice should be on that report.

The advice would form part of the quotation/design that follows after the report.

Sigh :wink_smile: Do you think I like paying more for my insurance than I would need to ? uke:

 

[Anthony S]

The QS must be a full time employee.

That don't mean on the cards, means they spent the majority of there working time with that particular company.

I know this because I have been a QS for a NICEIC company for a mate (got paid well) and also had my own full scope NAPIT running at the same time.

I don't think anything as changed since 10 year ago, they only want money.

 

[Guest125]

Sigh :wink_smile: Do you think I like paying more for my insurance than I would need to ? uke:

We sub our design work out. Imagine what my PI insurance would be on the railways?

 

[Guest125]

That don't mean on the cards, means they spent the majority of there working time with that particular company.

I know this because I have been a QS for a NICEIC company for a mate (got paid well) and also had my own full scope NAPIT running at the same time.

That should not have happened. A full time employee is exactly that. PAYE. A sub-contractor/consultant should not be allowed to QS for anyone.

 

[Guest125]

That should not have happened. A full time employee is exactly that. PAYE. A sub-contractor/consultant should not be allowed to QS for anyone.

But saying this I now realise that although this is written in there terms no checks were made by the NICEIC to ascertain that I was actually who I said I was and that I was a PAYE employee contracted to the company.

 

[spark 68]

On an EICR what do you think a C3 is ? A a recommendation that improvement is required.

That aside you are giving a professional opinion that either the installation is safe for continued use, or not, whichever the case may be, hence the PI.

 

[Anthony S]

But saying this I now realise that although this is written in there terms no checks were made by the NICEIC to ascertain that I was actually who I said I was and that I was a PAYE employee contracted to the company.

Their not bothered, my mate kept on putting them off for an inspection for about 2 years and they were happy to keep taking the fee.
He said he had no work to show them and they said if that's the case then we won't strike you off lol

 

[Leesparkykent]

That don't mean on the cards, means they spent the majority of there working time with that particular company.

I know this because I have been a QS for a NICEIC company for a mate (got paid well) and also had my own full scope NAPIT running at the same time.

I don't think anything as changed since 10 year ago, they only want money.

This makes me chuckle lol

 

[Guest125]

On an EICR what do you think a C3 is ? A a recommendation that improvement is required.

That aside you are giving a professional opinion that either the installation is safe for continued use, or not, whichever the case may be, hence the PI.

A recommendation that improvement is required but you should not state on the EICR how that improvement can be achieved. Hence, no PI required ;-)

 

[Guest125]

As I said earlier - splitting hairs.

 

[spark 68]

UKESRail, I looked into this long before I ever offered PIRs (as they were then) and you need PI, whether you like this or not, if you are going to offer that service then you need it.

I also added 3 phase and a few other bits and pieces to mine because I found out I was not covered for what I thought I was.

 

[Guest125]

I would have though my PL covered my for testing. I will speak with the insurance company.

 

[Anthony S]

I would have though my PL covered my for testing. I will speak with the insurance company.

Ask the NIC and they will tell you, you need it if

Professional Indemnity cover protects your legal liability to compensate third parties should they sustain any injury, loss or damage due to professional negligence on your part.
For example, if you undertake periodic testing and/or inspection of another person’s work and certify it to be adequate, but then there is a fault resulting in a financial loss to the customer, this would be covered under your professional Indemnity cover. If however you only test and inspect your own work there is no need for professional indemnity, as your public liability insurance will cover you.

 

[Guest125]

Ask the NIC and they will tell you, you need it if

Professional Indemnity cover protects your legal liability to compensate third parties should they sustain any injury, loss or damage due to professional negligence on your part.
For example, if you undertake periodic testing and/or inspection of another person’s work and certify it to be adequate, but then there is a fault resulting in a financial loss to the customer, this would be covered under your professional Indemnity cover. If however you only test and inspect your own work there is no need for professional indemnity, as your public liability insurance will cover you.

Looks like I need to speak to the insurance company and ensure this is place sharpish.

Thanks for the advice gents..

 

[spark 68]

I would have though my PL covered my for testing. I will speak with the insurance company.

It (PL) does cover you testing for what you install (the EIC bit), that is not the issue here, we are talking about offering EICRs, for that you need PI, IIRC there is also a separate addition for if you intend to supply design documentation/circuit diagrams etc., although I would have to double check that latter point.

 

[Anthony S]

Looks like I need to speak to the insurance company and ensure this is place sharpish.

Thanks for the advice gents..

No problem given I'm a older and wiser then you lol