UK 3 phase domestic supply

[Trufflepig]

I watched this vid on Youtube. Interesting. They have 3 phase supplies. Does anyone know the cost of upgrading from a single to a 3 phase domestic supply?

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uI7wxNtrorQ&lc=UgyPTN2d89tBByfm4Dx4AaABAg.9CrcYe7x50b9CsC6DnPJKw

You would need to talk to your local DNO. it would depend on where the nearest 3 phase was and work involved in getting it to your property.

 

[John-SJW]

This is the introductory paragraph.

Researchers are now simulating how the energy transition can be as successful and cost-effective as possible. As part of the simulation, they are also calculating how much hydrogen will be needed and where it could come from. In Germany, a recent study by Fraunhofer ISE showed that the cost is so low that the nation could gift itself the energy transition as a Christmas present.

The article makes these and many other points:

• Hydrogen is ideal to produce process heat about five hundred degrees centigrade.
• Hydrogen can be used to power some cars, trucks, trains, ships, and aircraft
• In Germany ten million cars could be powered by hydrogen, as opposed to forty million by batteries.
• Consumer choice will play a big part in how much hydrogen is needed.

It is very much a must-read article.

The weekend read: Hydrogen and the energy transition

Researchers are now simulating how the energy transition can be as successful and cost-effective as possible. As part of the simulation, they are also calculating how much hydrogen will be needed and where it could come from. In Germany, a recent study by Fraunhofer ISE showed that the cost is...

www.pv-magazine.com

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Does it? How are you counting these? Can you provide some data and an explanation of how you are defining petrol station and charging point for this?

Do wish some of you read links and at least do a simple Google before typing. 18 months ago EV charging points overtook petrol stations. That is not including home charging:

EV charging sites outnumber petrol stations for first time - Zapmap

New figures from Zapmap reveal the extent of the UK’s electric vehicle revolution, with the number of public charging locations now surpassing petrol stations for the first time.

www.zap-map.com

33634 EV CONNECTORS at 12147 LOCATIONS

EV: Charging

Want to understand a little more about electric car charging? We've created the ultimate guide on everything you need to know about electric car charging points

www.edfenergy.com

​

There are thousands of free electric car charge points in the UK, often located in supermarkets, shopping centres, public car parks, hotels and sometimes service stations.​

​

UK: number of charging locations 2018-2020 | Statista

In the period of consideration, the number of charging locations available for electric vehicles in the United Kingdom steadily increased.

www.statista.com

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An Hitachi battery train. 10-15 mins charge time, or charged when under overhead wires. Can run on overhead wires or battery when there are no wires. Batteries, which are the current types, last 10 years. The batteries will go to grid storage when renewed, with obviously superior new solid state sets.

 

[nicebutdim]

There will need to be hundreds (or even thousands) of times the number of charging points, than the current number of fuel pumps.

Fast charging is relative and doesn't compare to the couple of minutes required to fill a tank with petrol or diesel. While fast charging points are available, they only represent a small percentage of the total number of currently available chargers.

It is beyond doubt that EVs solve some of the problems we're facing, but I simply do not view them as anything more than a stop gap, with hydrogen being a much more viable long term option.

 

[John-SJW]

Hydrogen fuel cells are viewed for large vehicles: ships, trains, trucks and even buses. Batteries for smaller vehicles like cars. Germany already has fare paying hydrogen trains in operation.

Batteries will be used for trains where there is a mixture of electrified and unelectrified track. Merseyrail metro at Liverpool have a new Swiss train fleet which can take batteries and run on 3rd rail or wires. They are to use them to extend the service onto unelectrified track in a number of peripheral locations.

Hydrogen is out as combustible fuels are precluded from the Liverpool & Birkenhead underground sections. There is a plan to extend the metro to Skelmerdale, making it feasible because the cost of electrification is omitted. Then trains can run from the centre of Liverpool's underground section to Skelmersdale. There is also in that area to be a hydrogen trial on the Liverpool to Chester line via Runcorn. Train maker Alstom are on the line, as is a local oil refinery for the hydrogen gas. Covid delayed it.

Batteries be a part of the solution, but EV cars are here to stay. Once the solid state batteries are here they will be firmly fixed. Home chargers and fast chargers everywhere then they are solid in the market.
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It is viewed that we will charge EVs like we charge smart phones, drip charging as we go. Go to the supermarket then plug in for free, getting maybe 10 miles of range. Go home, then plug in. Go to work then plug in, maybe for free getting lots of miles over 9 hours. Fast charging on major roads.

Even if some chargers are not that fast, they will give enough energy in the battery to get you around in normal circumstances.

 

[davesparks]

Hydrogen is a wonderful fuel, its just a shame that the vast majority of our hydrogen supply currently comes from fossil fuels and creates just as much pollution being made as burning the fossil fuels would for energy.
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It is viewed that we will charge EVs like we charge smart phones, drip charging as we go. Go to the supermarket then plug in for free. Go home, then plug in. Go to work then plug in, maybe for free. Fast charging on major roads.

None of this 'plugging in for free' will be free, we will be paying for it one way or another. The cost may be hidden in increases in the price of your shopping at the supermarket, but you will still be paying for it.

For a supermarket car park to be fully equipped with car chargers they will need quite a large electricity supply capacity.
and at busy times it will be quite highly loaded, unless intelligent load control is incorporated in the whole system, but that will then lead to none of the cars getting very much charge whilst they are there.

 

[John-SJW]

Hydrogen is a wonderful fuel, its just a shame that the vast majority of our hydrogen supply currently comes from fossil fuels and creates just as much pollution being made as burning the fossil fuels would for energy.

Read that article about Germany and hydrogen. Very good.

The grid pay companies to use electricity as at times they produce too much. In these circumstances, and overnight, they can produce hydrogen, to sell or use to produce electricity in peak demand. This balances the grid, the holy grail for the grid operators.
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Introduction:

A 20-foot container sized battery that can charge four electric cars simultaneously has been safely delivered to Portsmouth International Port in the UK this week as part of the Port Energy Systems Optimization project.

It looks like another case of battery-to-battery transfer to fast-charge one or more battery-powered vehicles or trains. Charge the container overnight then deliver it to a station for the day. Sounds like an interim solution.

Innovative Battery Delivered to Portsmouth International Port

A 20-foot container sized battery that can charge four electric cars simultaneously has been safely delivered to Portsmouth International Port in the UK this week as part of the Port En...

www.renewableenergymagazine.com

 

[plugsandsparks]

Electric Cars are the work of the devil. They were tolerated when they were used to deliver milk early in the morning but now they pose a serious threat to the world as we know it.
I fear the world where civil unrest breaks out and new neighbour disputes emerge about whose turn it is the charge up the EV. Dark days ahead in more ways than one.

 

[John-SJW]

plugsandsparks, you really should find out before typing.

 

[plugsandsparks]

Sadly, i am at the sharp end on the last few miles of electrical energy distribution, install EV charging points and deal with clients who dare to ask for more KVA from their energy provider. I dont need to read anything, i live it
Oh and i recently quoted for a Super charger.... do YOU know how much these things cost ? and what is involved ? - Its eye watering....
Oh by the way tesla charge 24ppkwh, thats how they are paying for the superchargers.
Stop reading !!, by a Tesla and find out for yourself the reality of your dreams

 

[Midwest]

Well something will have to change with our love affair with fossil fuels, it’s polluting the planet and is running out.

Seems we have approx 50 years left for oil & gas and 150 years left for coal. Perhaps our grandchildren will be driving around in steam engines

Ev cars seem initially very expensive. There’s a couple of ev Jags near me. They start about 70k. Cheapest ev are 30k. I normally buy a newish car every 5 years or so, will my sons be able to afford that.

The prices will have to come down, we’ll have be able to go to an Electrical station, and charge up in a few minutes. As said not everyone has a drive. There’s plans for pavement parking to stop, so lead’s across paths won’t happen.

The combustion engine is nearing its end, not in my lifetime, nor my children, but will happen for my grandchildren.

 

[Zerax]

So yeah, EVs are great for those people who own houses with driveways.

Yes... agreed. However, it's not as simple as that. There's a growing number of work based charging points for example... and yes before you scream at me... I know that doesn't help everyone, particularly people with no fixed place of work.

Then there's the technology that's improving all the time. I think we're getting to the point where you can almost survive without a home charger... and yes yes yes.... I know it's not about 'getting by' or 'struggling' to find somewhere to recharge... but it's heading in the right direction.

I see there are now some cities who are installing charging points in lamp posts... Portsmouth is one I think. So you're situation where you can't park in the communal area, but on the street... in a few years time, you might have to just be near a lamp post.

 

[nicebutdim]

It looks like another case of battery-to-battery transfer to fast-charge one or more battery-powered vehicles or trains. Charge the container overnight then deliver it to a station for the day. Sounds like an interim solution.

Then there's the technology that's improving all the time. I think we're getting to the point where you can almost survive without a home charger... and yes yes yes.... I know it's not about 'getting by' or 'struggling' to find somewhere to recharge... but it's heading in the right direction.

I see there are now some cities who are installing charging points in lamp posts... Portsmouth is one I think. So you're situation where you can't park in the communal area, but on the street... in a few years time, you might have to just be near a lamp post.

The situation is certainly becoming brighter for prospective EV owners and there will undoubtedly be a significant increase in the number on our roads in the near future.

The point I've been trying to make is that EVs are not without their faults and rely upon technological advances happening at a significant pace. In short, we're not quite on the cusp of an EV utopia as described in some posts on this thread.

 

[John-SJW]

Look at this. Worth watching:

3 phase domestic supply > on Free Electrical Advice - Electricians Forums

Find 3 phase domestic supply Advice and Help. How-to 3 phase domestic supply in the UK Electrical Forum advice boards on Electricians Forums. 3 phase domestic supply on ElectriciansForums.net Electrical Advice Forum.

www.electriciansforums.net

Many countries have put a time on the discontinuing of fossil fuel burning in cars, like in 10 years. This was today:

Petrol and diesel cars could be banned by 2030

PETROL and diesel cars could be banned within a decade as government ministers consider bringing forward the 2035 ban to revolutionise Britain's roads sooner.

www.express.co.uk

It will probably be well before that as the market kicks in.

 

[UNG]

Your point is that EVs will cost more in the long run to maintain. That is false, based on myth and propaganda:

• EVs do not not needed servicing;
• They have about 14 moving parts, promising to have a life spans far, far greater than ICE cars;
• The batteries are dropping like lead balloons in price. (Did you look at Tong Seba's vid? Please do);

So EV's will be reliant on the MOT to dictate it's servicing schedule so that is 3 years with no servicing before it's first MOT. I found out recently that the engines in hybrid vehicles don't have the emissions checked at an MOT

Don't know where you found the 14 moving parts fact there is probably that number if not more in the steering alone

The new solid state Toyota battery:

• The prototype cells can fully charge in 15 minutes;
• Capacity loss of just 10% over 30 years;
• Millions of recharges before any degradation;
• Fully recharged in less than 15 minutes;
• Half the size and weight of existing batteries for the same storage;
• The price will be roughly the same as current batteries - in effect half the price.

Others are also working on solid state batteries.

Capacity loss of 10% over 30 years is this real world testing
1 million 15 minute charges takes 28.5 years not taking into account the discharge time
So millions of charges before any degradation is pushing the truth

To make a point it is best to do some research, then some analysis. I have noticed these appalling cars you are fond of, which waste 80% of the energy in the tank, you have not mentioned the poison they pour out the tailpipes.

Best to look at and understand the videos I posted, all based on factual research. It is clear you never looked at them.

I do not have an opinion, I am concluding after research on the subject and analysis. Very different.

You clearly do have an opinion that may be driven by your location, an EV may not suit everybody especially in remote locations but a lot of research does not take that into account
It is all very well posting videos but they can be tainted by the authors own views

EVs are approaching the price of ICE cars. Once parity, then they will just take off. Look at the Tony Seba video.

I have two EV chargers on the pavement on my road. Fast chargers are everywhere. Shell are having one fast charger at every petrol station, with a schedule in place to phase out petrol pumps, as EVs take over. One station in London is now to be all EV charging.

I agree, cars are a pain. But! The advances in battery technology will cascade to homes. We will all see the changes if not in EVs, because we may not own one.

You say fast chargers are everywhere what do you deem to be a fast charger, most of the public charging points that I know off locally to me are 3 or 7 kw

Wise up. When EVs start to take over the chargers will be everywhere. They will be installed very quickly. Did you look at the Tony Seba video? The mass take up of ICE cars in 10 years? Unless you look at the vid it is best not comment on EVs.

I saw a report a little while ago that suggested we needed to be installing 4000 charging points per day for the next 10 years to meet the anticipated demand
With regard to Tony Seba doing some research into his background he seems to be using social media and working as an "influencer" to possibly promote businesses or products that he may have some interest in. I think it is narrow minded of you to suggest others do not comment on EV's if you haven't looked at his video

I can say the same about you. I have taken the bother to find out, you appear not to have done. I have an old Toyota.
The infrastructure is here, it is called the grid. Electricity is everywhere, even in the sticks. EV chargers on drives are easily fitted. Fast chargers are easily fitted, as Shell are doing, who are to phase out all petrol stations. No kidding.

The charging infrastructure is being fitted by councils, and mainly private companies, all over the UK.

You have taken the time to look at a number of videos without looking into the background of those promoting the technology
Electricity is everywhere is really an uninformed throw away comment, without the cable capacity to deliver the load the fact electricity is available is meaningless
To state that EV chargers on drives are easily fitted means not all the housing stock can have an EV point fitted. Depending on what your definition of a fast charger is, the biggest hurdle to overcome is the supply needed for one, a 22Kw charger is probably at the lower end of fast charging and may just be within the capability of the normal domestic supply providing only a few houses in the street have them after that it's 50Kw upwards to 350Kw with the higher capacities only available to vehicles with 900v batteries, to say easily fitted is open to debate a 350Kw charger needs a 260A 3 phase supply plus a further 40A 3 phase supply for the cooling plant.
Is the infrastructure really here to carry all that additional load that you or your videos are forecasting quite a few DNO engineers would beg to differ around my area

It took 10 years to move from horses to petrol cars. That is abandoning of the:

• The breeding of the horses;
• Disposing of dead horses;
• The stables;
• The carts;
• The buggies;
• The maintenance of the carts and buggies;
• The fodder;
• The clearing of the tons of horse manure in the streets each day;
  The disposal of the horse manure;
• etc;

Then the adoption of the ICE car, with:

1. The factories set up;
2. The maintenance of the cars with garages;
3. The training of the mechanics;
4. the distribution of petrol - initially petrol was sold in chemists;
5. The construction of the roads;

The introduction of the ICE car produced many huge industries:

• Car manufacture;
• Car maintenance;
• Oil industry;
• Rubber industry;
• Road construction industry.

All in 10 years. We are half way to that point in EVs.

Until the EV can do everything an ICE vehicle does with the same convenience it will be a hard slog to sell the concept, can it happen in 10 years remains to be seen

Look back on the thread you will see a post by me linked to Fully Charged who interview a top man at National Grid. They say they do not need any more power generation to cope with the coming EVs, etc. The secret is storage of electricity, or energy to make it. Look at it, very interesting. Do not reply until you have looked at it.

The top man at National Grid is more than likely a bean counter with no concept of delivering what is generated to the point of utilisation. It has to be understood that a lot of the local DNO infrastructure certainly in my area was installed 70 - 90 years ago so is grossly undersized in parts add to this that the DNO's diversity allows something like 3 - 5Kw per property depending on whether there is a gas supply really throws into doubt the local networks ability to cope with EV charging.
With regard to power generation AFAIK we still import electricity from France and to fill in the peaks in demand we use pumped storage generation that uses off peak generated electricity to pump the water back up the mountain so will overnight EV charging impact on this due to reducing the amount of off peak electricity available and thus altering the current generation profile

None of this takes into account most households having 2 or more vehicles which if EV's become the norm all will possibly need charging at some point overnight

 

[Zerax]

Wonder if this Tony Seba can let me know the lottery numbers for next weekend too.

I can’t think of even 1 EV charger in a public place within 5 miles of my house. Probably 100k people live in that area.

I'm actually surprised how many there are... although the new problem is that often they're offline and just won't work ! I think most Lidl stores have them now ?

 

[John-SJW]

The point I've been trying to make is that EVs are not without their faults and rely upon technological advances happening at a significant pace. In short, we're not quite on the cusp of an EV utopia as described in some posts on this thread.

Many EVs have over the magic 200 miles range. Some 330. So range anxiety is not a problem as it was. New battery technology will make that even better. I mentioned Tesla's new battery of a million charges, with only 10% degradation in 30 years. This is now. The price of EVs is dropping like a stone. Once they are at parity with petrol cars the end with be quick for the ICE car. We are at the tipping point for EVs.

Yes, every lamp post can be a charger. Electricity is everywhere. Stuck with a flat battery? Take a small get you home charge from a passing car. His car bills yours automatically - in and out of each account..
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UNG, I see you are a doom and gloom merchant, ignoring the fact that EVs are taking off like wildfire.

It looks like you never looked at the Seba video then.

HMG are looking like setting 10 years to stop selling fossil fuelled cars.

 

[Zerax]

You can't seriously expect PV to take up this amount of slack in the UK, where we often don't see direct sunlight for days at a time.

For the UK, PV is not as 'likely' as wind is... we're simply too far north to make them economically viable with the existing cost of them compared to wind generation.

The big part of the jigsaw puzzle of balancing clean energy supply with demand is the storage of electricity. Lots of solutions out there right now, but the economics don't stack up yet.

We have to consider that time on Christmas Day, when we all want to put the turkey in the oven, but there's no sunshine and not a breath of wind ! Or later on that day at the start of the ad-break in Coronation Street when we all put the kettle on...

 

[John-SJW]

I'm actually surprised how many there are... although the new problem is that often they're offline and just won't work ! I think most Lidl stores have them now ?

ASDA have a lot of chargers. The aim is to have a charger at every parking bay. Shop and get 10 miles free at the same time.
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For the UK, PV is not as 'likely' as wind is... we're simply too far north to make them economically viable with the existing cost of them compared to wind generation.

The big part of the jigsaw puzzle of balancing clean energy supply with demand is the storage of electricity. Lots of solutions out there right now, but the economics don't stack up yet.

There is a solar farm on the English-Welsh border at Deeside. The world's first solar school is just outside Liverpool - 1961. Solar PV panels are dropping in price like stones - see the Seba vid. It will be as cheap to have solar tiles as ordinary tiles. All roofs are solar roofs as the sun shines on them all. The economics clearly stack up looking at all the panels on top of commercial buildings.

We have to consider that time on Christmas Day, when we all want to put the turkey in the oven, but there's no sunshine and not a breath of wind ! Or later on that day at the start of the ad-break in Coronation Street when we all put the kettle on...

Look at the link to the National Grid man. That solves your misgivings.

 

[UNG]

The same we do now. Go to a charging station. They are everywhere. The south east has more EV charging points that petrol stations.

You have fallen for your own hype
How many petrol pumps are there in the south west, really skews the argument using charging points V's petrol stations

National Grid say they can cope. They will not upgrade the distribution network unless it needs it.

The DNO's are not a part of National Grid they are 6 separate companies delivering the local network infrastructure in the 14 licenced distribution areas around the country

 

[John-SJW]

quite a few DNO engineers would beg to differ around my area

They had better pull their fingers out. They still have ten years to do it though.
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How many petrol pumps are there in the south west, really

I gave the links. Look at them. The UK has more charging points than petrol stations. That is excluding home, store and work chargers.

 

[mattg4321]

It’s hard to not be sceptical of someone’s views who is so fanatical about something for no obvious reason.

Been on any marches this weekend?

 

[John-SJW]

It’s hard to not be sceptical of someone’s views who is so fanatical about something for no obvious reason.

Been on any marches this weekend?

I go by facts and analysis. I gave them with supporting links. I leave opinions to drunks in pubs, as entertaining as they are.

 

[UNG]

Many EVs have over the magic 200 miles range. Some 330. So range anxiety is not a problem as it was.

Until manufacturers start delivering real world figures for a rainy winters day at -5°C the skepticism will prevail as to the viability of the EV

New battery technology will make that even better. I mentioned Tesla's new battery of a million charges, with only 10% degradation in 30 years. This is now.

That's strange, earlier you said

The new solid state Toyota battery:

• The prototype cells can fully charge in 15 minutes;
• Capacity loss of just 10% over 30 years;
• Millions of recharges before any degradation;
• Fully recharged in less than 15 minutes;
• Half the size and weight of existing batteries for the same storage;
• The price will be roughly the same as current batteries - in effect half the price.

Others are also working on solid state batteries.

The price of EVs is dropping like a stone. Once they are at parity with petrol cars the end with be quick for the ICE car. We are at the tipping point for EVs.

Given the lifespan of a car could be 15 - 20 years the ICE could be around for longer than you think

Yes, every lamp post can be a charger. Electricity is everywhere. Stuck with a flat battery? Take a small get you home charge from a passing car. His car bills yours automatically - in and out of each account..

Are we going to install lamp posts closer together to facilitate EV charging I doubt it
A get you home charge from a passing car who may have limited battery life isn't really going to happen plus there is the added inconvenience for the driver who stops

UNG, I see you are a doom and gloom merchant, ignoring the fact that EVs are taking off like wildfire.

It looks like you never looked at the Seba video then.

HMG are looking like setting 10 years to stop selling fossil fuelled cars.

No doom and gloom just look deeper into and have a better understanding of the realities of the technology than you and your social media influencer Seba do

Stopping selling fossil fueled cars is one thing stopping there use is another


Just to add some doom and gloom
There are a lot of issues yet to be addressed regarding EV's not least a multi EV accident where a fire occurs, talking to some firefighters a while ago and they said the only thing they can do is watch it burn for several days due to the voltages involved, they fully expect road closures to last days if there is an EV fire as it would likely be a smouldering reigniting fire that without breaking the battery apart would be difficult to put out and would be very dangerous for those trying

 

[plugsandsparks]

Apparently you can tow some EVs to charge them up, wonder if the AA will offer this as a get you home service, lol

TBH home charging is fantasy island, not going to happen, impossible. We cannot even get broadband at decent speeds because of the infrastructure. Local LV is the same,

The only way forward is Supercharging parked up under a Pylon...........

 

[nicebutdim]

There are a lot of issues yet to be addressed regarding EV's not least a multi EV accident where a fire occurs, talking to some firefighters a while ago and they said the only thing they can do is watch it burn for several days due to the voltages involved, they fully expect road closures to last days if there is an EV fire as it would likely be a smouldering reigniting fire that without breaking the battery apart would be difficult to put out and would be very dangerous for those trying

A lot of people reading this thread will be aware of the energy expended by a single lithium-ion cell in the event of thermal runaway caused by short circuit, heat or other damage. I'm not sure if any of us could really imagine the consequences of an entire EV battery pack meeting such a fate.

More recent developments in lithium battery technology have seen the flames taken out of this equation, but that does not resolve the huge volumes of extremely hot gases that vent from cells in a fraction of a second.

Possibly this will be partially resolved by future advances in battery technology, but it would be difficult to resolve entirely given the huge amount of energy harnessed in such battery packs.

 

[Zerax]

The economics clearly stack up looking at all the panels on top of commercial buildings.

Wrong... the reasons why we see them on commercial buildings is mainly so that the company can say "look at us, look how much we care about the environment"

PV panels on domestics only work when there's a FIT attached. As soon as you take this out of the equation, they have a payback period of 30+ years !

At present, all this stuff about installing PV or Battery Storage or Ground Source Heat Pumps is largely of a 'hobby' type status... largely because it doesn't make any economic sense. Grid sourced electricity is still the cheapest source for domestic supply. Of course, this may change in the future, and I hope it does.
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Possibly this will be partially resolved by future advances in battery technology, but it would be difficult to resolve entirely given the huge amount of energy harnessed in such battery packs.

I'm no expert... but I seem to recall Lithium Titanate chemistry is literally bullet proof. It has other faults, like an inefficient charge cycle, but it's certainly extremely stable.
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We cannot even get broadband at decent speeds because of the infrastructure.

But that's caused by Openreach... which, even though they were privatised back in the 80's, is still run very much like a government department. I.e. hopelessly inefficient.
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The Fully Charged channel did a vid a number of years ago pointing out that one refinery alone consumed the equiv electricity of Leicester and Coventry combined.

Just a word of warning... do not believe everything you hear on Fully Charged. They obviously have an agenda that they pushing and they like to twist things to fit that agenda.

 

[UNG]

But that's caused by Openreach... which, even though they were privatised back in the 80's, is still run very much like a government department. I.e. hopelessly inefficient.

Openreach and BT are still run by the government under OFCOM's stewardship, OFCOM never take a pop at any of the other licenced comms suppliers like the do with BT and Openreach. You only have to look at the Mercury Communications debacle in the 90's BT had to allow use without payment of the telephone network until Mercury got 15% of the market, Mercury thought they still got use of the 14% without payment when they hit 15% when it was pointed out they had to pay for it all their business model fell over and they disappeared from he market.
Sky and Talk Talk do many underhanded things regarding faults and orders with Openreach so that Openreach have to pay compensation to them for not meeting performance targets, I know people in BT / Openreach so hear a lot of what goes on from the inside
Why is it never Virgin Media, Talk Talk or Sky's fault that superfast broadband isn't available in remote areas
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Just a word of warning... do not believe everything you hear on Fully Charged. They obviously have an agenda that they pushing and they like to twist things to fit that agenda.

Hard to get a balanced view from this type of site when they are promoting the biased view

 

[davesparks]

Yes, every lamp post can be a charger. Electricity is everywhere.

This shows an incredible lack of understanding, your average lamppost does not have a big enough supply for anything more than a very slow trickle charge.
Lamp posts are usually fused, as far as I know, at 6A,10A or 16A so at most they could deliver 3.5kW. That's only enough for the smallest, slowest, 3kW chargers.
That won't be available at every lamppost on a circuit either due to the application of diversity in the design.

Yes electricity is everywhere, but it isn't everywhere in large enough supplies or cable sizes.

 

[Mike Johnson]

In real world terms my pals Nissan EV was supposed to be capable of 150mile in reality only 80, will be interesting as he has just changed to a Kia who he was advised is capable of 300mile, I'm just waiting to say "I told you so"

 

[SparkyAndGeorge]

The top man at National Grid is more than likely a bean counter with no concept of delivering what is generated to the point of utilisation. It has to be understood that a lot of the local DNO infrastructure certainly in my area was installed 70 - 90 years ago so is grossly undersized in parts add to this that the DNO's diversity allows something like 3 - 5Kw per property depending on whether there is a gas supply really throws into doubt the local networks ability to cope with EV charging.
With regard to power generation AFAIK we still import electricity from France and to fill in the peaks in demand we use pumped storage generation that uses off peak generated electricity to pump the water back up the mountain so will overnight EV charging impact on this due to reducing the amount of off peak electricity available and thus altering the current generation profile

None of this takes into account most households having 2 or more vehicles which if EV's become the norm all will possibly need charging at some point overnight

This figure of 3-5Kw per property for the DNO's diversity calculations is on the generous side. It's actually more like 2.5Kw per property.

 

[UNG]

In real world terms my pals Nissan EV was supposed to be capable of 150mile in reality only 80, will be interesting as he has just changed to a Kia who he was advised is capable of 300mile, I'm just waiting to say "I told you so"

And this is the problem the EV has if the expected range figures were more transparent for different driving and climatic conditions people would possibly be more open to them but pitching a figure that it is rarely able or impossible to attain means you are buying something akin to an expensive lottery ticket with a changing outcome due to the prevailing climatic conditions
Will EV's ever be as convenient as an ICE vehicle remains to be seen to fill a tank with fuel takes around 5 minutes will we be able to "refuel" a battery in 5 minutes in years to come without degrading it's performance and longevity too much

 

[DPG]

John, can I ask if you have any financial/corporate interest in EV cars and/or chargers? You seem very biased towards them and seem to be ignoring a lot of the questions/points people are making. You also seem to have limited knowledge regarding the UK electrical infrastructure and capabilities.

Not sure if you answered this in the end, but how many charge points are there in the UK compared to petrol pumps? NOT petrol stations.

 

[plugsandsparks]

And this is the problem the EV has if the expected range figures were more transparent for different driving and climatic conditions people would possibly be more open to them but pitching a figure that it is rarely able or impossible to attain means you are buying something akin to an expensive lottery ticket with a changing outcome due to the prevailing climatic conditions
Will EV's ever be as convenient as an ICE vehicle remains to be seen to fill a tank with fuel takes around 5 minutes will we be able to "refuel" a battery in 5 minutes in years to come without degrading it's performance and longevity too much

Its possible, judging by the recent lab developments but the amount of power consumed by an EV is pretty fixed, largely by Newton. So this means to charge quickly for our convenience requires charging at over 250KW, most commercial buildings dont have that to hand so this means building specific charging stations (Super Chargers) that charge DC straight to the battery pack. As mentioned, i have looked into it and as you can imagine the A/C to D/C convertors at that power level are not trivial. Its the equivalent of the "elephant in the room" dont mention it and no one will notice....

 

[Mike Johnson]

John, can I ask if you have any financial/corporate interest in EV cars and/or chargers? You seem very biased towards them and seem to be ignoring a lot of the questions/points people are making. You also seem to have limited knowledge regarding the UK electrical infrastructure and capabilities.

Not sure if you answered this in the end, but how many charge points are there in the UK compared to petrol pumps? NOT petrol stations.

His profile says: Manufacturer / Distributor / Supplier / Inventor - etc

 

[David Prosser]

Lets not forget that the intention to remove or remodel natural gas into domestic properties for heating and cooking will significantly effect the demand profile for domestic customers.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Lets not forget that the intention to remove or remodel natural gas into domestic properties for heating and cooking will significantly effect the demand profile for domestic customers.

I have no idea what point you are trying to make?

 

[ferg]

I have no idea what point you are trying to make?

It's still early, have another coffee and try again.

 

[John-SJW]

to fill a tank with fuel takes around 5 minutes will we be able to "refuel" a battery in 5 minutes in years to come without degrading it's performance and longevity too much

I tend to have a long wait to get to a pump, then a long wait to pay. I would say half an hour. Some EVs will soon recharge the lot in 15 mins. But as it will not be fully flat more like 5 to 10 mins. If charged at home, it fills the tank overnight while in bed.
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John, can I ask if you have any financial/corporate interest in EV cars and/or chargers? You seem very biased towards them and seem to be ignoring a lot of the questions/points people are making.

I have followed the progress of zero emissions cars for many years. I do analysis, being a graduate engineer. That is how we assess matters. I have addressed all points put forward. Most points given are people just no knowing, with others reciting oil company propaganda and myths.

Most were answered in the links I gave. The links many never looked at but then typed complete nonsense thinking they knew all the answers. Many asked question which can be answered by a quick Google. Many dismissed the links rejecting the content, unable to accept that what they have been thinking for years is wrong.

I have no interests in EVs, batteries, etc.

This thread started off regarding supplies, home batteries, etc, I never pushed it over to an EV thread, in fact attempting to get it on track. The battery technology is being pushed by EVs. The more they improve, the better for homes.

HMG is looking at banning the sale of new fossil fuel burning cars in ten years, bringing it forward 5 years. I never made it up, I gave the link.

 

[DPG]

I tend to have a long wait to get to a pump, then a long wait to pay. I would say half an hour. Some EVs will soon recharge the lot in 15 mins. But as it will not be fully flat more like 5 to 10 mins. If charged at home, it fills the tank overnight while in bed.
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I have followed the progress of zero emissions cars for many years. I do analysis, being a graduate engineer. That is how we assess matters. I have addressed all points put forward. Most points given are people just no knowing, with others reciting oil company propaganda and myths.

Most were answered in the links I gave. The links many never looked at but then typed complete nonsense thinking they knew all the answers. Many asked question which can be answered by a quick Google. Many dismissed the links rejecting the content, unable to accept that what they have been thinking for years is wrong.

I have no interests in EVs, batteries, etc.

This thread started off regarding supplies, home batteries, etc, I never pushed it over to an EV thread, in fact attempting to get it on track. The battery technology is being pushed by EVs. The more they improve, the better for homes.

HMG is looking at banning the sale of new fossil fuel burning cars in ten years, bringing it forward 5 years. I never made it up, I gave the link.

So did you answer the question about pumps/charge point numbers?

 

[Zerax]

In real world terms my pals Nissan EV was supposed to be capable of 150mile in reality only 80, will be interesting as he has just changed to a Kia who he was advised is capable of 300mile, I'm just waiting to say "I told you so"

I'm sure your pal is a sensible chap and realises that 'capable' means 'best case'... rather than what he'll achieve with his style of driving. I think that for a car company to provide a bespoke mileage figure for your driving style and all ranges of ambient temperature is impractical.

As to his new car... he obviously likes EVs as he's bought another one. Should he achieve the same sort of relative range, he'll still be getting about 160 miles. At average UK road speeds, that must be pushing 3hrs of driving... which for me (others may be fine with it) is too far without a break anyway.

For me (others will vary) I do on average about 25 miles a day... with the occasional (like twice a year) longer trip. So EV range is not an issue for me.

 

[DPG]

I have no idea what point you are trying to make?

People will use more electricity for cooking, so household usage will go up with that as well as EV charging.

 

[Zerax]

Will EV's ever be as convenient as an ICE vehicle remains to be seen to fill a tank with fuel takes around 5 minutes will we be able to "refuel" a battery in 5 minutes in years to come without degrading it's performance and longevity too much

An interesting question...

I've been learning alot recently about EVs... and in particular EV Vans. One of the things that I've learnt is that owning and using an EV can be more convenient than an ICE vehicle. It's just a different sort of convenient, a different way of doing things... it's mostly about change. And change is notoriously difficult for us mere humans. Before I'm shot down in flames... I want to be clear that I don't think they work for everyone right now... but for several million people, they do.

So for me, right now with a diesel van... once every couple of weeks, when the fuel light comes on, I'll have to go off somewhere to buy diesel. It takes me maybe 15 mins all in... travelling to it, filling, paying and travelling back. Done that for years... I'm used to it... it's routine.

With an EV... I'd plug it in when I got home (I can park outside my own front door). In the morning, unplug it, hang the cable up and drive off. Not every day... but every other one say. It would become routine in the same way that driving off to find diesel is now.

With an EV though there's an added bonus... I could also pre-heat the van in the morning... so it's toasty warm when I got in... no more de-icing the windows. Is that more of less convenient ?

 

[nicebutdim]

I tend to have a long wait to get to a pump, then a long wait to pay. I would say half an hour. Some EVs will soon recharge the lot in 15 mins. But as it will not be fully flat more like 5 to 10 mins. If charged at home, it fills the tank overnight while in bed.

.....

I have followed the progress of zero emissions cars for many years. I do analysis, being a graduate engineer. That is how we assess matters.

.....

The battery technology is being pushed by EVs. The more they improve, the better for homes.


This thread started off regarding supplies, home batteries, etc, I never pushed it over to an EV thread, in fact attempting to get it on track.

I'm genuinely stunned by the idea of taking 30 minutes to refuel a car and this highlights another gulf between London and the rest of the UK. There may be one or two occasions per year when I can't drive straight to a pump and those occasions only require a wait of 1-2 minutes.

The very idea of zero emissions is a red herring and one that seems to obsess many people. I'm very much in favour of reducing our use of resources and the pollutants we create, but we should not kid ourselves about EVs, simply because no fumes are released from an exhaust pipe.

I do fully agree that battery technology has seen a huge increase in R&D due to the advent of EVs. We are yet seeing the fruits of those investments, with current batteries not being far removed from early Lithium-ion cells, but that will undoubtedly change in the near future.

One the last point; regarding this thread running off at a tangent, please don't be so modest. If I could draw you attention to posts 3, 7 and 9, you first moved to gas, then the Tesla Powerwall and finally launched straight in to the subject of EVs - previously EVs had been mentioned only in relation to additional loads on the UK grid. Others have merely followed your lead as thread creator.

 

[DPG]

An interesting question...

I've been learning alot recently about EVs... and in particular EV Vans. One of the things that I've learnt is that owning and using an EV can be more convenient than an ICE vehicle. It's just a different sort of convenient, a different way of doing things... it's mostly about change. And change is notoriously difficult for us mere humans. Before I'm shot down in flames... I want to be clear that I don't think they work for everyone right now... but for several million people, they do.

So for me, right now with a diesel van... once every couple of weeks, when the fuel light comes on, I'll have to go off somewhere to buy diesel. It takes me maybe 15 mins all in... travelling to it, filling, paying and travelling back. Done that for years... I'm used to it... it's routine.

With an EV... I'd plug it in when I got home (I can park outside my own front door). In the morning, unplug it, hang the cable up and drive off. Not every day... but every other one say. It would become routine in the same way that driving off to find diesel is now.

With an EV though there's an added bonus... I could also pre-heat the van in the morning... so it's toasty warm when I got in... no more de-icing the windows. Is that more of less convenient ?

Agree with some of that, except the filling up with diesel. Don't drive 15 minutes to fill up and then go back home. Call at the petrol station on your way to somewhere else surely?. Top tip eh

 

[davesparks]

With an EV though there's an added bonus... I could also pre-heat the van in the morning... so it's toasty warm when I got in... no more de-icing the windows. Is that more of less convenient ?

That's not unique to EVs, there are various ways of achieving that in any vehicle.

I've got a webasto fuel burning heater on a timer plumbed in to the coolant system in my 20 year old landrover defender that gets the engine and cab up to temperature while I'm eating my breakfast.

Or you can fit what is basically a small immersion heater into your coolant system, plug it in on a timer and it will warm the engine block up so that you have instant heat and much easier starting.

 

[Mike Johnson]

With an EV though there's an added bonus... I could also pre-heat the van in the morning... so it's toasty warm when I got in... no more de-icing the windows. Is that more of less convenient ?

As above I have the facility to start my car from my iPhone from inside the house to warm it up before I need it.

 

[Zerax]

With an EV though there's an added bonus... I could also pre-heat the van in the morning... so it's toasty warm when I got in... no more de-icing the windows. Is that more of less convenient ?

I forgot the caveat (some people are so picky !)... obviously some ICE vehicles can do this already, but they are rare or you have to install them as a non-standard upgrade.

I know that some VW Californias have 2 diesel heaters... a 'parking heater' and an engine pre-heater. This feature is generally regarded as a big selling point for them, whilst it's nearly always standard on EVs. (I'm not saying ALL, as I haven't investigated them all)

 

[John-SJW]

The very idea of zero emissions is a red herring

zero emission at the point of use is not a red herring at all. It is coming. About three years ago the transport minister abandoned the large scale electrification project, because zero emission battery and hydrogen fuel cell trains can fill the bill

I do fully agree that battery technology has seen a huge increase in R&D due to the advent of EVs. We are yet seeing the fruits of those investments

I gave the Tesla one million charges battery to be announced within days.

I did not labour the point of EVs on this thread.
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So did you answer the question about pumps/charge point numbers?

Did you do a Google? I gave links to EV chargers outnumbering petrol pumps. That is not counting home charging either, which are being installed every day, with also public chargers being fitted every day.
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Or you can fit what is basically a small immersion heater into your coolant system, plug it in on a timer and it will warm the engine block up so that you have instant heat and much easier starting.

They are decades old. Fitted by dealers in Canada with supermarkets having plug in points to keep the engine warm.
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This EV car has a range of 360 miles. They swap out your battery in 3 minutes, if you want - an instant 360 miles range. China is the largest maker of EVs, and the largest user with half of the EVs in the world. They make 99% of EV buses.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTsrDpsYHrw

 

[mattg4321]

How many vehicles can all the petrol pumps in the U.K. service per hour vs how many vehicles can all the EV chargers service per hour. That’s the only fair comparison. I think we all know the answer.

Can’t believe you have to wait so long for petrol/diesel. I nip in on my way somewhere. It would be highly unusual for me to not be in and out in under 5 minutes.

 

[John-SJW]

How many vehicles can all the petrol pumps in the U.K. service per hour vs how many vehicles can all the EV chargers service per hour. That’s the only fair comparison. I think we all know the answer.

How come you find it so difficult to understand something so simple?