Grid switches

[james king]

hello.

jut a quick q on grid switches and what your ways to install them are..

eg. using 20A DP switches with a fuse next to it or just install a FCU to hard wire applience in, there for not fusing at the grid.

would you run it in 4mm, 2.5mm or 6mm radial or would you run it of the ring?

i would like to hear your thoughts as i have seen many many ways before

 

[monkeyelectric]

i normally run off the ring, single unswitched socket for appliance under counter switched by a 20a double pole switch above counter

 

[Stuuk1]

I have a question myself which I think fits this thread... Don't mean to hijack at all!

When you say the grid switch, do you mean the ones where it has a a single switch for each appliance? E.g. Dishwasher, Fridge, Oven etc.

Having never looked at the rear of the switch plate, how do you wire to and from these?

Are the circuits all installed as spurs from them?!

 

[RyanCheetham]

You link all the supply terminals together to keep the ring in tact or radial going and then just a single spur to the outlet for the appliance. They can be a little bit fiddly

 

[gizmo]

First. I'll warn you, I'm half cut, so if admin take the huff, then oh well, I'll deal with that tomorrow !
Right, tell me, the posters above me, are any of you sparks ? Running a spur, through a 20a DP switch UNFUSED ! I've done something similar to this once, when I was an apprentice, even then I had the (half) sense to use a 32a dp switch !
Next, running a 6mm for a grid bank, again with no fuses, either means a low load with about a 150m run, or you haven't a clue ! If it's the second one, do yourself a favour, get yourself a QUALIFIED sparkie in !

 

[gizmo]

@ryancheetham, four spurs, between two outlets ? Last time I looked at the regs, it was one spur between outlets, one off an outlet, and one at the board ! Oh, and each through a 20a dp switch, off do ring ?

 

[vjsmarwick]

personally when i am wiring kitchens i fit 20A flex outlet plates behind the appliances and a 13A switch fuse above the work top this way if it blows the fuse for any reason you dont have to move the appliance just change the fuse above the worktop and i have never come across a grid switch with the fuse holder in it too i will have to look out for them

 

[vjsmarwick]

mmmm i am reading posts here and wandering why you would run spurs through a 20A dp switch ? if you are coming off a 32 A ring spur it should be fused down how can you fuse down with a 20A dp switch should it not be down to a 13A switch fuse ? and if i was running to an appliance that needed 20A i would be fitting it with its own supply just like you would the water heater

 

[Stuuk1]

personally when i am wiring kitchens i fit 20A flex outlet plates behind the appliances and a 13A switch fuse above the work top this way if it blows the fuse for any reason you dont have to move the appliance just change the fuse above the worktop and i have never come across a grid switch with the fuse holder in it too i will have to look out for them

So you install a 20a DP switch under the worktop to each appliance and a fuses spur above the worktop for each DP switch?

Also with these fuses spurs, do you wire these in as part of the ring or as spurs from the ring?

Sorry if these are stupid questions...

 

[gizmo]

@VJS, mk do a fuse holder to fit their grids. The way I did it for remote switching 'other end of the kitchen) in this case, was mk eight gang back box, top for were said fuse carriers, bottom four were 20a dp switches. Cover plate being labelled accordingly of course !

 

[vjsmarwick]

ok looked at the grid switches available and impressed maybe i need to look more in to using them may look good with an 8 grid plate with 4 switches and 4 fuses below

 

[gizmo]

FUSES ABOVE ! Never below. Acceptable is fuse carrier and switch side by side, but never above ! Sorry, pet hate

 

[gizmo]

@vj AGAIN ! Are a sparkie ? Since when have you ever seen a '13a dp grid switch' ? If you've got one, a thousand pounds of my money is coming your way ! 10a, and 20a is a standard dp grid switch !

 

[1sammaskell]

4 switches and 4 fuses below will not look good, run a 20amp supply in 2.5mm if need be run 2 to the grid and use un switched socket outlet for appliances at low level in adjacent cupboards.

 

[Stuuk1]

4 switches and 4 fuses below will not look good, run a 20amp supply in 2.5mm if need be run 2 to the grid and use un switched socket outlet for appliances at low level in adjacent cupboards.

You would run this as a totally separate supply from the board?! Not off of the kitchen ring?

 

[1sammaskell]

yes i would do this on a totally different circuit, would do cable calcs for appliances also to make sure it is suitable.

 

[Stuuk1]

Cool, I'll look in to this then.

My problem is I don't know what is accepted practice with domestic...!

 

[RyanCheetham]

I assumed the fusing down was implied. To be honest ive only ever done the grid switching for below counter oitlets once and found it to be alot harder work than the usual fused isolaters above worktop in line with an outlet below the worktop. And i used click grid switches which come marked up for appliances and they do the fuse carrier modules to allow for fusing down

 

[1sammaskell]

We do work for barratts homes, moriss homes, redrow and a load of other large builders and we always put the grid switches on a seperate 20 amp supply. If there is a utility we will also run a seperate one to here also.

 

[1sammaskell]

what could be easier a supply to a grid, link your lives and then terminate into an un switched socket, simple all switching done in the same place!

 

[Stuuk1]

what could be easier a supply to a grid, link your lives and then terminate into an un switched socket, simple all switching done in the same place!

This now makes sense, ill have to have a look at the back of one at some point...

A separate 20a radial sounds good to me! At this rate ill have two or three fuseboards haha

 

[monkeyelectric]

You wire a 20a double pole to each under counter socket for each appliance off the ring, marked up on switch what they're for, i don't see why people on this thread have a problem with this? I also wouldn't go cutting the plugs off appliances to wire them straight in as it will invalidate the warranty

 

[MDJ]

I think the drink had a factor in some of the crap spouted off here yesterday.

 

[ROADESPARKY]

Just a quick note. Just moved into a new build house. Dishwasher, washing machine and fridge on 20A dp grid switches with spurs behind the said appliances. Oh, and the grids are off the kitchen ring.

 

[MDJ]

I just don't understand why Fused Connection Units are there for the appliances under the units to connect to, whats wrong with an unswitched single socket and the appliances with plug tops on them, surely cutting off plug tops and connecting to FCUs will void the warrenty on appliances? Just my view, however headache now appearing :6:

 

[Engineer54]

You wire a 20a double pole to each under counter socket for each appliance off the ring, marked up on switch what they're for, i don't see why people on this thread have a problem with this? I also wouldn't go cutting the plugs off appliances to wire them straight in as it will invalidate the warranty

IT WILL NOT INVALIDATE ANY WARRANTY, ...Jesus how many more times!!!

 

[MDJ]

well I guess that answers my question then, headache a little less now

 

[Engineer54]

First. I'll warn you, I'm half cut, so if admin take the huff, then oh well, I'll deal with that tomorrow !
Right, tell me, the posters above me, are any of you sparks ? Running a spur, through a 20a DP switch UNFUSED ! I've done something similar to this once, when I was an apprentice, even then I had the (half) sense to use a 32a dp switch !
Next, running a 6mm for a grid bank, again with no fuses, either means a low load with about a 150m run, or you haven't a clue ! If it's the second one, do yourself a favour, get yourself a QUALIFIED sparkie in !

Well, i consider myself as suitably qualified, so i'll answer your post accordingly...lol!!

What's different about taking a spur off a ring circuit to a single/double socket to using an unfused 20A grid switch?? Also none of these appliances would be subject to overload conditions.

Using two 4mm and certainly two 6mm into a multi grid switch arrangement is a non-starter as far as i'm concerned, just not enough space and switch terminals too small to safely accommodate these cable sizes.

I'm not a lover of this grid switch system, though i do see it has it's uses. I prefer to see switched FCU above worktop and an unfused, unswitched outlet below.

 

[monkeyelectric]

IT WILL NOT INVALIDATE ANY WARRANTY, ...Jesus how many more times!!!

IT DOES AND IT WILL!! I've had first hand experience of this by chopping a moulded plug off a boiler, wiring it into an fcu and then when it broke it wasn't covered under warranty cos the plug was cut off!!!

 

[londonlec]

IT DOES AND IT WILL!! I've had first hand experience of this by chopping a moulded plug off a boiler, wiring it into an fcu and then when it broke it wasn't covered under warranty cos the plug was cut off!!!

I agree. The service agents will not touch it.

 

[Engineer54]

IT DOES AND IT WILL!! I've had first hand experience of this by chopping a moulded plug off a boiler, wiring it into an fcu and then when it broke it wasn't covered under warranty cos the plug was cut off!!!

Absolute Rubbish!! You actually let them get away with that gem did you?? Any connection to the mains supply that complies with BS7671 cannot invalidate a warranty....

I agree. The service agents will not touch it.

Then more fool you, for letting the service agent fob you off. Cutting a moulded plug off an appliance (Any Appliance) does NOT invalidate the warranty ...End Of!!! Check with your solicitor if you don't believe me!!!

 

[Plonker 3]

Absolute Rubbish!! You actually let them get away with that gem did you?? Any connection to the mains supply that complies with BS7671 cannot invalidate a warranty....



Then more fool you, for letting the service agent fob you off. Cutting a moulded plug off an appliance (Any Appliance) does NOT invalidate the warranty ...End Of!!! Check with your solicitor if you don't believe me!!!

Come on get real, if the plug gets damaged then of course the company will send one of its own engineers to change it as otherwise the warranty will be invalid :rolleyes2:

 

[PEG]

Think about it chaps,you can demonstrate your competence to the assessor or 2391 examiner for dozens of tasks but you fold justifying it to a tech/sales phone jockey at ACME fridge-makers ltd? Use the force...

 

[Plonker 3]

Think about it chaps,you can demonstrate your competence to the assessor or 2391 examiner for dozens of tasks but you fold justifying it to a tech/sales phone jockey at ACME fridge-makers ltd? Use the force...

If you cant justify your actions to a call center then I think you seriously need to consider a new career if you are a electrician.

 

[vjsmarwick]

Being a qualified spark gives us our own rights and if you read the documentation with your appliances most state they are not covered of plugs are removed but no court would ever let them off with cancelling the gaurentee if the work is done by a qualified person. As for the fact I had not actually seen the grid type fuse holder does not mean I am any less of an electrician so don't judge me on that and the reason I personally use 20A flex connectors behind the appliances and not an unswitched socked is because I hate the idea of having to remove the appliance when the fuse in the plug blows as for plugs in adjacent cupboards unless your going to place them at the front of the cupboard is it really that easy to access it to change the fuse there either its a personal preference only and is still ok with the regs

 

[monkeyelectric]

Absolute Rubbish!! You actually let them get away with that gem did you?? Any connection to the mains supply that complies with BS7671 cannot invalidate a warranty....



Then more fool you, for letting the service agent fob you off. Cutting a moulded plug off an appliance (Any Appliance) does NOT invalidate the warranty ...End Of!!! Check with your solicitor if you don't believe me!!!

Its NOT rubbish!! It happened end of! Anyway beings as its just a simple matter of fitting a socket under the counter supplied by a 20a dp switch above its just easier to leave the plug on and that way if someone wants to change a faulty appliance they just have to unplug it and plug a new one in instead of getting an electrician in for such a simple task! Or if it breaks and a service engineer comes out to fix it and see's the plug has been lopped and uses it as a reason to say the warranty is invalid because of it, it will cause the customer grief, you grief and lead to speaking to solicitors as you say to get it sorted!! Also if someone goes out and spends £400 on a new appliance and you just come round and lop the plug off in front of them how do you think they'd feel? I agree for convenience it would be easier if the fuse blew to have it above the worktop to change but be honest how often does a fuse blow in these things unless theres a problem with it anyway? I've been doing it my way for years, its been like it in every house i've lived in and i think fused spurs everywhere above the worktop looks so ugly in a kitchen, its looks much better to use grid 20a switch or normal 20a switches with the appliance name on the switch, i'll keep to doing it this way i think!

 

[vjsmarwick]

Monkey read your regs a 20a dp switch leading to a spur is not following the bible it has to be fused down to 13a either with a 13a sf or a 20a grid and 13a fuse so want it or not you still have fuses above the work top so seems crazy to have a second fuse under the work top I have a funny feeling we may see a more definite direction of this in the regs soon to clarify it better as to what is expected until then we do what we feel is right

 

[monkeyelectric]

Monkey read your regs a 20a dp switch leading to a spur is not following the bible it has to be fused down to 13a either with a 13a sf or a 20a grid and 13a fuse so want it or not you still have fuses above the work top so seems crazy to have a second fuse under the work top I have a funny feeling we may see a more definite direction of this in the regs soon to clarify it better as to what is expected until then we do what we feel is right

Having a 20A dp switch is no different to just having a socket spurred off the ring surely? Its not going to be pulling 20 amps down it as its one 13a socket, where in the regs does it say that? And you've contradicted yourself because you've put that you can't have a 20a dp switch leading to a spur but you can have a 20a grid switch so which is it?

 

[jumpin jax]

When was the last time anyone had a fuse blow on an appliance, replaced the fuse and it carried on working? The machine blew the fuse for a reason so chances are it has had its day or there is a serious fault requiring an engineer of some sort.

 

[Stroppy]

Nonsense, if a fuse blows you replace it with one of a higher rating, then the thing works again and everyone is happy.

 

[MDJ]

I just cannot see a problem having a single socket below the worktop and the fuse in the plug top TBH, whats all the fuss about with doing this then? pretty normal practise in 99.999999999% of the kitchens in this country

 

[MDJ]

Monkey read your regs a 20a dp switch leading to a spur is not following the bible it has to be fused down to 13a either with a 13a sf or a 20a grid and 13a fuse so want it or not you still have fuses above the work top so seems crazy to have a second fuse under the work top I have a funny feeling we may see a more definite direction of this in the regs soon to clarify it better as to what is expected until then we do what we feel is right

I am totally confused by all of this, what seems to be the argument here is there is a 20 amp double pole switch in a grid feeding a socket below the worktop feeding lets say a dishwasher, inbetween this link a 20 amp switch added above the worktop as well? some think this switch between the socket and grid needs to be a 13 amp spur? or that a 13 amp fuse added in the grid? or that the plug top is removed and a spur added below the unit as well, what a bloody mess, why not add a switch next to the dist board, next to the grid and in the lounge as well so we can have 5 means of isolation and fuses and not one LMAO. regs huh, sometimes common sence and good practice is the way to do things, just how many 13 amp switches do we need here, whats wrong with having the grid on it's own 20 amp ring main and legs out to the socket or spur below the unit only and no Switch above the unit? if there is a requirement to have a switch above the unit then do not have the grid as well, too many switches and too messy IMO.

 

[monkeyelectric]

When i mean grid switches i just mean so say you have a dishwasher and a washing machine under one counter, then have a gridplate with a 20a dp switch module for each so 2 in total in a 1G plate and then under another counter a fridge and a freezer seperate then the same again 2 switches in a 1G plate one for each socket, all spurred off the ring, keeps it very neat

 

[monkeyelectric]

Like this 2 Gang White Plate c/w Grid Frame and these http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/GUG20DPDWW.html

 

[Toonlad]

you have to take each kitchen on its own merit and design.

you can use a switched spur above counter and flex outlet, appliance protected by fuse. Esentially used for intergrated appliances

You can use a grid switch to isolate single unswitched socket. moulded plug protects appliance.esentially used on non intergrated appliances. Or place socket in adjacent unit and feed plug through side of cabinet.

You can run a grid switch on on seperate circuit. 20A radial

you can run a grid switch on the kitchen ring and use the grid with fuse holders.

Like i said its all down to customers need and ease of access for safe isolation. As a further note to a post above about Barretts spec, i know what he means, persimmons (charles church), wimpey taylor, bellway, etc etc all use different types above as standard, so if you get one of there homes you will see these.

I hope this simplifies things here, its all in the design.

cheers

 

[richy3333]

Monkey read your regs a 20a dp switch leading to a spur is not following the bible it has to be fused down to 13a either with a 13a sf or a 20a grid and 13a fuse so want it or not you still have fuses above the work top so seems crazy to have a second fuse under the work top I have a funny feeling we may see a more definite direction of this in the regs soon to clarify it better as to what is expected until then we do what we feel is right

Please can you quote the specific Reg so we can all take a look?

 

[electric will]

You can't have a fused spur above the work top and a socket out let below for say a washing machine, where's your discrimination between fuses, it has to be a 20amp DP switch.

 

[Engineer54]

Its NOT rubbish!! It happened end of!

It is Rubbish, absolute rubbish!! If you as an electrician were so easily fobbed off with that kind of crap, then more fool you!!

This has come up on here so many times now. Let's get this one straight once and for all!! The only reason manufactures fit a plug to appliances up to a certain rating, is to do with EU regulations, in that manufacturers must fit a plug to appliances that is suitable for the country of final destination. It has nothing to do with any end user warranty!!

A manufacturer cannot and will not invalidate ANY appliance warranty, if the appliance is connected to the supply by a means that is recognised as compliant by BS7671, or indeed any other countries compliant methods (the same models are available throughout the EU and the plug tops won't incorporate a fuse!!).

What your talking about, are these warranty service agents that some manufacturers use, that think they are above commercial/consumer law. They often try it on with the general public but, i can assure you they have no legal footing to do so., It's normally based on the fact that the service engineer sent round to sort out a problem with an appliance, can't be arsed with disconnecting say a FCU or CCU. So they try the warranty invalidation angle/stance!! Further, i've personally never seen a manufacturers warranty that stipulates removal of a plug top will invalidate said warranty. If it did, it would contravein UK consumers rights, and could be totally ignored anyway!! lol!! Maybe different if the end connection was DIY hack job, and left in a dangerous condition. Even then, once restored to a compliant connection the warranty would continue!!!

There was a member here who's wife is a solicitor, and confirmed that manufacturers have no grounds to invalidate any appliance warranty purely on the grounds of the removal of a moulded (or otherwise) plug top. The appliance has to be fit for purpose, so any component that fails (ie element, switch, pipe, pump etc) during any warranty period issued by a manufacturer must be rectified, or replaced....

 

[monkeyelectric]

It is Rubbish, absolute rubbish!! If you as an electrician were so easily fobbed off with that kind of crap, then more fool you!!

This has come up on here so many times now. Let's get this one straight once and for all!! The only reason manufactures fit a plug to appliances up to a certain rating, is to do with EU regulations, in that manufacturers must fit a plug to appliances that is suitable for the country of final destination. It has nothing to do with any end user warranty!!

A manufacturer cannot and will not invalidate ANY appliance warranty, if the appliance is connected to the supply by a means that is recognised as compliant by BS7671, or indeed any other countries compliant methods (the same models are available throughout the EU and the plug tops won't incorporate a fuse!!).

What your talking about, are these warranty service agents that some manufacturers use, that think they are above commercial/consumer law. They often try it on with the general public but, i can assure you they have no legal footing to do so., It's normally based on the fact that the service engineer sent round to sort out a problem with an appliance, can't be arsed with disconnecting say a FCU or CCU. So they try the warranty invalidation angle/stance!! Further, i've personally never seen a manufacturers warranty that stipulates removal of a plug top will invalidate said warranty. If it did, it would contravein UK consumers rights, and could be totally ignored anyway!! lol!! Maybe different if the end connection was DIY hack job, and left in a dangerous condition. Even then, once restored to a compliant connection the warranty would continue!!!

There was a member here who's wife is a solicitor, and confirmed that manufacturers have no grounds to invalidate any appliance warranty purely on the grounds of the removal of a moulded (or otherwise) plug top. The appliance has to be fit for purpose, so any component that fails (ie element, switch, pipe, pump etc) during any warranty period issued by a manufacturer must be rectified, or replaced....

It wasn't my boiler to get fobbed off with, i only heard after the fact and i've never chopped a plug top off since, i've never looked into the legal side of the warranties these manufacturers offer to see if chopping a plug off will invalidate said warranty but i'd just rather not do it anyway for reasons i put in previous posts, everyone has there own way of doing things and i shall keep doing things my way and if the need comes one day to lop off a moulded plug top i will now do so safe in the knowledge you said it was ok and it WILL NOT invalidate any warranty manufacturers or otherwise

 

[Engineer54]

It wasn't my boiler to get fobbed off with, i only heard after the fact and i've never chopped a plug top off since, i've never looked into the legal side of the warranties these manufacturers offer to see if chopping a plug off will invalidate said warranty but i'd just rather not do it anyway for reasons i put in previous posts, everyone has there own way of doing things and i shall keep doing things my way and if the need comes one day to lop off a moulded plug top i will now do so safe in the knowledge you said it was ok and it WILL NOT invalidate any warranty manufacturers or otherwise

It's not me saying it, it's legally the UK's consumer rights legislation etc, that is doing that!! I'm just informing you that your statement on removing a plug top from an appliance and connecting that appliance via a complying means of connection, to the mains supply (FCU/CCU etc) invalidates a warranty is Wrong!!

Again, don't take my word for it, check it out for yourself either via a solicitor or a consumer group/agency!!...