2391 the changes, from the horses mouth at City and Guilds.

[SirKit Breaker]

Hello all,

I am now in possession of a circular from C&G detailing the changes to the short courses.

BS7671:2008 (2011) and City and Guilds qualifications.

Here goes.

How will the wiring regulation changes affect the 2391 inspection, testing and certification of electrical qualification?

The existing suite of 2391 qualifications will be replaced by the following qualifications

• 2394 Level 3 Initial Verification of Electrical Installations
• 2395 Level 3 Periodic Inspection, Testing and reporting of Electrical Installations
• 2396 Level 4 Design of Electrical Installations

Exact titles for qualifications are to be confirmed, and the above titles are given as an indication of content only. All the above qualifications are due to launch on November 26th 2011, and will be on the QCF (Qualification Framework Credit) and will be written in line with BS7671:2008 (2011)

How long will the 2391 qualifications remain?


2391 closes for new registrations on 31 December 2011, with a final certification date of 31 December 2013. dated entry exams will continue to be available until the summer of 2012, exact final dates of the 301 and 303 exams to be confirmed.

Which version of the regs should candidates apply knowledge of when undertaking 2391 assessments

Until 31 December 2011, candidates may answer to either the 2008 (Red Book) or 2011 (Green Book) version of the regs. After this date candidates must answer in line with the 2011 Amendment 1 version (Green Book).

Can 2391 units be used towards achievement of the 2394, 2395 or 2396?

It is not anticipated that candidates who hold 2391 units will be able to use these towards the new qualifications. Candidates who have achieved one of the 2391 units but not completed the full qualification should ensure that they complete the remaining unit prior to the final certification date.
Please note that the 2391-301 and 2391-303 exams are not likely to continue beyond mid 2012, although this is subject to demand. They may continue beyond this date, but with a reduced number of examinations per year.

There are also other changes to most of the short courses and a new Domestic NVQ diploma for Electricians only working in the domestic market, but the memo runs to 8 pages and i aint typing it all out. If you have any specific questions please post and ask DONT fill my inbox with PM's.

Cheers..........Howard

 

[Mark_Burgess]

I am interested to see what the pass rates would be once under way, will it be low like the 2391?

 

[SirKit Breaker]

I am interested to see what the pass rates would be once under way, will it be low like the 2391?

That i cant answer, but i suppose it all depends on the amount of revision etc prospective candidates put in prior to sitting the exams. I can bet it wont be made any easier though.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Well i`m happy with my 2391..so there....

 

[Guest123]

I can bet it wont be made any easier though.

We'll revisit that statement after the course has been run a couple of times I think.:smiley2:

All qualies have gotten progressively easier each time they have been messed about with since the demise of the 2360 IMO.

I cant really see this being any different TBH.

 

[steve447]

Thanks for the info Sirkit, answered my question from another post.
I was thinking of doing the 2391 soon, do you reckon its advisable to wait for the new one or to do it now?
Also is that 3 seperate courses? 3 seperate qualifications? 3 seperate course fees's?

 

[SPARTYKUS]

We'll revisit that statement after the course has been run a couple of times I think.:smiley2:

All qualies have gotten progressively easier each time they have been messed about with since the demise of the 2360 IMO.

I cant really see this being any different TBH.

Totally agree. I'd put money on the pass rate, well, shooting up, as IQ's will suddenly increase and efforts made by students, etc etc there goes a pig through the air

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Thanks for the info Sirkit, answered my question from another post.
I was thinking of doing the 2391 soon, do you reckon its advisable to wait for the new one or to do it now?
Also is that 3 seperate courses? 3 seperate qualifications? 3 seperate course fees's?

If you feel confident that you will pass the existing 2391, then I would think doing it now would be best.
Otherwise, to have the equivalent qualifications will involve 3 courses and 3 lots of fees, and I bet they won't be a third of the price.

 

[i=p/u]

i aint a 100% ready for it, buty il be booking on it before cut off.. and probably sit in january....... does anyone know what the exam fees are for this 2391...

 

[SirKit Breaker]

i aint a 100% ready for it, buty il be booking on it before cut off.. and probably sit in january....... does anyone know what the exam fees are for this 2391...

About £695 ish. not sure if that includes the VAT.

 

[netblindpaul]

The 2391/2392 is already 3 separate courses.
There is no change there.
You have 2392 the initial verification course, relatively new course, does not cover PIR's, course and exams. not overly familiar with this as have not studied it or taken the course or taught the course.
Then you have 2391-10 the "old" 2391, which is the I&T course, course with prac & theory exams.
Then you have the 2391-20 "old" 2400 which is the design course, a course with prac & theory exams & a design project.
You are exempt the 2391-20 prac if you have passed the 2391 prac as they are one in the same.
So, what is the difference with the new courses.
3 courses covering 3 fields with exams, both theory & practical & IIRC a project still so...

The difference is?

Apart from hat is the old "2400" now being a L4 course.

 

[Guest112]

is the 2391 still going to be a valid qualification will i be required to sit the replacement exams?

 

[netblindpaul]

As far as I understand it no replacement exams the 2391 will still be valid, though in time I suspect that employers etc. will be pushing for new recruits to have the new exams.

Mind your apprenticeship is never out of date, a degree is never out of date, so I can't see how 2391 can aver be out of date.

The regs courses require upgrades because the regs change.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

About £695 ish. not sure if that includes the VAT.

Eh?....about £500 waky skillcentre.........

 

[23dlp23]

have you got any more info on the domestic nvq

 

[Engineer54]

As far as I understand it no replacement exams the 2391 will still be valid, though in time I suspect that employers etc. will be pushing for new recruits to have the new exams.

Mind your apprenticeship is never out of date, a degree is never out of date, so I can't see how 2391 can aver be out of date.

The regs courses require upgrades because the regs change.

NO, ...but they will be wanting a wedge of money to confirm that it is equivalent to the new certificate in years to come. Which in all probability will be a far better qualification to have!! lol!! That's what they are doing now with the older, better qualifications.
Why they have to muck about with different course numbers, has always escaped me, unless confusion helps their coffers grow!!

 

[gaz2212]

So is my 2391 qualification (that I worked hard on and paid a lot of money to sit) going to turn out to be a waste of time and money??? I hope not!!

Will I need to do a resit or update?

 

[netblindpaul]

gaz,
Please read my posts above.

 

[Engineer54]

So is my 2391 qualification (that I worked hard on and paid a lot of money to sit) going to turn out to be a waste of time and money??? I hope not!!

Will I need to do a resit or update?

NO gaz, ...if your going by what i was saying in my post, i'm talking about in years to come. When the younger bosses, and/or clerks at these various institutions (like JIB etc) wouldn't have ever heard of the C&G 2391, like they have never heard of the older numbered C&G.... So don't lose your 2391 certs, or you could be chasing your tail in years to come. ..lol!!

 

[grimysparks80]

I was going to do the 2391 as soon after christmas as i could afford it, but i mght have to rush onto it now. I bet therell be loads of people saying the new quals arent as good. Todays sparks who respect the 2391 are tomorrows bosses offering jobs.

 

[Engineer54]

I was going to do the 2391 as soon after christmas as i could afford it, but i mght have to rush onto it now. I bet therell be loads of people saying the new quals arent as good. Todays sparks who respect the 2391 are tomorrows bosses offering jobs.

You'll probably find in all probability, that the bosses of the future will, if they have any electrical qualifications, be straight from school to Uni desk bound Engineers, who wouldn't have the faintest idea about older C&Gs, only what will be current at the time. The others that will offering jobs in the future will be know nothing clerks or agencey parasites, the same as they are today ...lol!!!

 

[Mfctitch]

Morning everyone
Not sure weather to ask this here or start a new thread
I have just updated my 17th edition with the 30 questions and am looking to join the Niecie. I do not do electrical work every day but have done several consumer unit changes which I get a friend to help me with so that the work can get signed off.
My question is that I dont think I will ever have the experience or the
Knowledge to take the 2391 but was wondering if you think I should go for the 2392.
Sorry if this was a bit long winded.

 

[ezzzekiel]

if getting practical experience and help why not throw a bit of study in the mix and go for the 2391, or do the 2392 then follow up with 2391

 

[SirKit Breaker]

is the 2391 still going to be a valid qualification will i be required to sit the replacement exams?

Yes it is, and no you wont.

Cheers...........Howard

 

[ian65]

Hi every one i have just sat the 2391 at Lowestoft college on the 20th Oct and the fee was 590 pounds but a 9 week course at Great Yarmouth was going to cost 390 over the said weeks. Needless to say the Lowestoft course went ahead but not for the price, the tutor Jahn Ware is great and explains every thing over 4 days...

Just waiting for my results and the exam was tough...

Ian.

 

[mogga]

I recon its just another way of dilluting qualifications and making CnG more money as guys will do more and more CnGs to get qualifications without acctualy doing an apprenticeship IMO CnG shouldnt be open to all but a progressive ladder BUT as CnG keep moving the goal posts this will be a dream

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Morning everyone
Not sure weather to ask this here or start a new thread
I have just updated my 17th edition with the 30 questions and am looking to join the Niecie. I do not do electrical work every day but have done several consumer unit changes which I get a friend to help me with so that the work can get signed off.
My question is that I dont think I will ever have the experience or the
Knowledge to take the 2391 but was wondering if you think I should go for the 2392.
Sorry if this was a bit long winded.

Why do you think this?....The 2391 is for ANYONE who feels ready to take it.....If you study the GN3 hard and are persistant with it ....theres no reason why you shouldn`t pass. The 2391 seems to be shrouded in mystery (with a bit of fear factor thrown in) but even the scenario (15 marks) questions arnt too tough as you are given all the info you need to answer the questions. I think some here are too quick to knock themselves back on this course but my advice would be to just go for it..........

 

[ian65]

Hi every one, I have just taken my 2391 and with all the changes that are happening will i be able if i have failed to re sit the existing exam?
I took it on the 20th Oct and will find out results about 1 Dec ish!

I am happy with how i did but have reservations on the result for me (well i will find out in due course).

Ian

 

[netblindpaul]

Yes there will be resits and the "old" course will be available at reduced frequency as far as I have been told until the end of 2012.

 

[nick182]

Does anyone know how much its going to cost to do the 2394, 95, 96?

let me see if i have this right.. basically the 2394 i have to sit 3 exams.. same again with the 2395 and 2396?

City & Guilds 2394 Level 3 - Initial Verification of Electrical Installations
City & Guilds 2395 Level 3 - Periodic Inspection, Testing and Reporting of Electrical Installations

City & Guilds 2396 Level 4 - Design of Electrical Installations

or is it just the set 3?

thanks

 

[darking]

My question is in the scope of the 2396 Design course. the 2391-20 course that I have is a level 3 qualification, which is hard work but doable as it was assignment based. for the 2396 to be a level 4 certificate, the bar must be higher.

Some of the guys 2391-20 assignment work was really classy with electro-cad design drawings, while my drawings were by hand and my calculations written out - theirs were done automatically by their cad programme!

will this sort of stuff be a requirement just to do the new quals?

 

[Engineer54]

My question is in the scope of the 2396 Design course. the 2391-20 course that I have is a level 3 qualification, which is hard work but doable as it was assignment based. for the 2396 to be a level 4 certificate, the bar must be higher.

Some of the guys 2391-20 assignment work was really classy with electro-cad design drawings, while my drawings were by hand and my calculations written out - theirs were done automatically by their cad programme!

will this sort of stuff be a requirement just to do the new quals?

Well done on getting your C&G 2391-20. Oh, and you probably did this course the correct way, believe me, if you can't do drawings and the accompanied calculations written out manually so to speak, then you you haven't really passed anything, as these programmes do everything for you. Any fool can pump in a few details, and the programme will do the rest. At least you know how to check any data on a computer screen when aren't exactly how they should be. It's very true when they say, ''a computer programme is only as good as the information it's given'' ..lol!!

It doesn't always follow that the latest course C&G 2396 will be any harder i'm afraid, as these days it seems they go the opposite way, to achieve the pass results, and have a further incentive of giving it a higher level grade to bring in the punters. You only have to look at the level grading of the Pat Testing C&G course set at level 3, to see the manipulation that going on these days.

It never used to be like this, but like everyone else, the C&G institute has jumped head first on the money train, which is not good news for the electrical industry, or come to that, ...any of the other vocational trades they presently cover certification wise....

 

[darking]

Thank you engineer54 I did feel at the time that my work was a bit shoddy compared with theirs, and the assessor there hinted that this might be the way forward for me, but your point is taken. with all the new quals i know of people doing a seven day installer course, 17th edition, the practical testing course, then cramming for 2391, and attempting the design course and crashing to earth. if they had used the cad stuff they could have become electrical whizz kids without an actual day on site

 

[Chr!s]

My question is in the scope of the 2396 Design course. the 2391-20 course that I have is a level 3 qualification, which is hard work but doable as it was assignment based. for the 2396 to be a level 4 certificate, the bar must be higher.

Some of the guys 2391-20 assignment work was really classy with electro-cad design drawings, while my drawings were by hand and my calculations written out - theirs were done automatically by their cad programme!

will this sort of stuff be a requirement just to do the new quals?

There are better design courses out there, if i was you i would decide what line of work you wish to develop.

 

[darking]

My line of work is Inspection and Testing, from domestic to industrial and i doubt that anyone can do this properly without a thorough understanding of the design requirements detailed in BS 7671.

I have kept up to date with every edition and update of the Regs and find that I still encounter installations that defy logic, whatever standard they were built to.