Arggghhhh NVQ or not to NVQ, ECS Card or no ECS Card??

[phabpixs]

Ok time for a little rant....

I have retrained done my 2330 levels 2 & 3, 17th edition and doing 2391 currently. I'm also registered with Elecsa, have my own business and I'm self employed.

OK so If I want to work as a contractor on a main construction site (when times are quite on the domestic front for example) then I need an ECS card, but under that scheme set up by the HSE I'm not elegible as a skilled tradesman, because I don't have an NVQ!!!

Can I get an NVQ being self employed - NO, because in theory I'm meant to be learning off a skilled individual. So if your self taught a keen learner etc you're stuffed.

How is it that I'm deemed by one government scheme to be competent person but not by another? Isn't domestic work more heavily regulated that commercial/industrial? I find it farcical that I can potentially wire up a new build on my own as a competent person, complete the test & certification process if I do it myself, but if I do the work through a third party unless I do the NVQs I'm classified as a numpty with no skills!!! What are we coming to in this country.

Arghhhh I'm so frustrated at the moment.... give me some sanity... Please!

 

[ricardo123]

There is no barrier to you getting an ECS card, anyone can apply to take the exam but you'll be classed as a JIB Labourer.

The problem exists with the Part P sheme in my opinion in that to be a member of the scheme I think the NVQ3 should be mandatory (edited: or be a JIB Electrician or above).

 

[ricardo123]

I re-read your post again, and I'm not sure you understand what kind of work you will get on a large site. You are unlikely to have the 1st fix skills required such as tray, and basket, conduit, trunking, ladder racking, dealing with large armoured's, using singles, connecting up armoured's and connecting into 3-phase boards, then of course as you have a 2391 an emloyer may want you to be testing on large systems, 3phase db's, maybe even switch rooms where you could easily kill yourself without the required knowledge, that's why there is a proper route you have to go down before you can work on commercial/industrial sites, for your own safety and the safety of others.

Sorry to be so harsh, but I hope from reading the above you will understand a bit better why the JIB grading system is there and why employers preference is JIB graded contractors.

 

[phabpixs]

tray, basket, conduit etc is all part of 2330 courses as practical assignments for which you competence is assesed. That aside you can just as easily kill yourself on a single phase as a three phase. It's more about the current.

At the end of the day it's likely that you will be part of a team on a big site, and if you're a subcontractor surely the site electrical supervisor should not be getting you to do work where inappropriate and should be checking to make sure that standards are fulfilled, for their own peace of mind alone!.

I have worked on site, most recently on a school project where although on paper my skills, knowledge were limited by ECS grading standards I was highly praised along with a colleague for the level of professionalism that was far and away better than two of the other subbies who were so called Gold card holders. From my limited experience in this field I do not necessarily see that the NVQ ensures any degree of quality of workmanship per se. Just because you have a driving licence does not say you're a good driver - you can have 14 yr olds on a race track out performing 20, 30 40 somethings and still not be able to drive on the roads because they don't have a licence!!!

 

[ricardo123]

Like I said there is no barrier to you working on site as a JIB labourer(with ECS) which is appropriate to your level of experience, I am not sure what your getting at, are you saying with your limited experience you should be paid a sparks rate and given the same responsibilities as a JIB electrician?

Also how did you manage to get on site without an ECS card?

 

[Jonesy83]

on paper im quaified to work on factorys but when it comes to changing a light fitting in my own kitchen oooooooooooh noooooooooo im not qualified im not part p

 

[oldstudent]

Ricardo

What about really old blokes that passed exams before NVQ was even invented. My memory is a bit vague. Wasn't it about 1986.

They were probably the ones teaching you your NVQ.
Lets stop them working on site and being part P.

Oh thats me. I'll get me coat

 

[Guest123]

Electrotechnical Certification Scheme (ECS) card

Have a look through the above site. It should have all the info you need.

 

[ricardo123]

oldstudent as you probably now the employer can sign you off as a jib electrician or approved electrician if you have the experience before these qualifications came along so it's not a problem. Most oldtimers I know have not got an NVQ and are JIB Electricians or Approved Electricians.

What I mean is that you now have people in a part p scheme who have little experience but think they are competent. Before there was only one route to becoming an electrician and that was through the JIB scheme. I have met a lot of apprentices who after a few weeks think they are the bees knees and know it all but it takes years to get good at this trade. There's a lot to know and a lot of responsibility. The part p scheme has both good and bad points to it in my opinion.

phabpixs, my advice to you is to get yourself a permanent job with a good employer, like a JIB rate payer and do your NVQ through a company like Quickstep. You'll also probably have to wait till the market picks up but I don't think from what you have written you will find it too hard to get yourself in with an employer. You'll have to tough it out on JIB labourers rates but you could still do some Part P jobs on the weekends or evenings. You can't just expect to be classed as an electrician on site when you have little experience no matter how good your skills are.

 

[ian.settle1]

oldstudent as you probably now the employer can sign you off as a jib electrician or approved electrician if you have the experience before these qualifications came along so it's not a problem. Most oldtimers I know have not got an NVQ and are JIB Electricians or Approved Electricians.

What I mean is that you now have people in a part p scheme who have little experience but think they are competent. Before there was only one route to becoming an electrician and that was through the JIB scheme. I have met a lot of apprentices who after a few weeks think they are the bees knees and know it all but it takes years to get good at this trade. There's a lot to know and a lot of responsibility. The part p scheme has both good and bad points to it in my opinion.

phabpixs, my advice to you is to get yourself a permanent job with a good employer, like a JIB rate payer and do your NVQ through a company like Quickstep. You'll also probably have to wait till the market picks up but I don't think from what you have written you will find it too hard to get yourself in with an employer. You'll have to tough it out on JIB labourers rates but you could still do some Part P jobs on the weekends or evenings. You can't just expect to be classed as an electrician on site when you have little experience no matter how good your skills are.

Thats because we already had those gradings long before the NVQ came into existance.

 

[ezzzekiel]

so maybe we scrap the nvq requirement, and the 2360 2382, 2391 etc etc now anyone can get onsite as a spark without any quals.

there are alternative ways of getting jib card without nvq but this is for tried and trusted sparks, there has to be some method of determining competence.

 

[ricardo123]

I wouldn't mind being a doctor, earning some of their massive salary, wish they did a 4 week course in that ;-) or being an airline pilot, they get well paid too, if anyone spots a short course (i.e 4-8 weeks) for either of those two let me know, I mean how hard can it be.

 

[armbands0]

I retrained after redundancy, I passed my 2330 and 17th edition. Previous life I repaired tv's.

Could not get a job with an employer so I am self employed, also registered with Elecsa. I would not feel confident to work on a site and certainly would not be quick enough.

As for 3 phase, yes current kills but the the voltages can be higher, so current will be higher.

I think the best route is to work with an employer and to get your NVQ but I could not, so I am doing the best I can and will stay domestic where I do feel competent if slow.

Good luck

 

[Dean]

I retrained after redundancy, I passed my 2330 and 17th edition. Previous life I repaired tv's.

Could not get a job with an employer so I am self employed, also registered with Elecsa. I would not feel confident to work on a site and certainly would not be quick enough.

As for 3 phase, yes current kills but the the voltages can be higher, so current will be higher.

I think the best route is to work with an employer and to get your NVQ but I could not, so I am doing the best I can and will stay domestic where I do feel competent if slow.

Good luck

The lower the voltage, Higher the current!!!

 

[AlanWirral]

I'm in a funny situation at the moment...

Due to finish college (2330) in June and before then do my AM2 so theorecticaly in June I should be qualified in my eyes. Now before i got made redundant I was with a government funded organisation whom i was to do my NVQ portfolio with and who were also paying for my college fees etc. Now that i'm not with them all I have is my day realease for college. I've done my 2392 Inspection & Testing qual but people are telling me without the NVQ i'm not 'Qualified'??

 

[Dean]

You need your NVQ Level 3 to be a JIB graded electrician. There are plently of 'electricians' out there that dont have NVQ3. Each to there own. But normally, to get decent work, on a site. They will want you to be JIB. Say what you will about JIB, but it is what it is.

 

[AlanWirral]

Hmmmmmmm looks like it better to have than not to i suppose. How long does it take to do?? Been told if you knuckle down it can be done in 2 weeks!?

 

[GStueyXR]

The lower the voltage, Higher the current!!!

Are you being serious?

Okay, you are partially correct, very partially. If you were talking about current flowing in a 50w downlight for instance, then in a 230V downlight 0.22A would flow, where as in a 12V 4A would flow.

BUT Voltage is the potential for current to flow. SO for any given resistance (maybe the human body) almost double the current will flow between line phases over a phase earth/neutral.

Dean, I dont know your background....... But I pray it is not in the electrical industry.

 

[Dean]

Excuse me, i never specified measuring a current between two phases. Maybe i should have made that clear. Of course the current is going to be higher between two phases, 1.732 times higher.

 

[olly w]

Excuse me, i never specified measuring a current between two phases. Maybe i should have made that clear. Of course the current is going to be higher between two phases, 1.732 times higher.

In this case voltage is the constant..230v from phase to neutral/earth, the impedance is what will determin the current flow, and hence the potential danger.!