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Hi Gents,
Probably a very simple answer but I'm installing an outside light on a small porch The switch being just inside the door.
The light however, is about 600ml from the door on the outside, so if I drill straight through from the outside to the inside, once inside, the cable exit point straight in to the back of the light outside is going to be out of the zones.

I was just wondering how people overcome this issue? I thought about drilling at an angle so that when the hole comes through to the inside, it is by the switch but I think I'll need either x-ray vision or a hell of a lot of luck, or even both, to pull this off close enough to the switch to be within a 'zone'

Any help is appreciated. Thanks.
 

Pete999

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Arms
Esteemed
Hi Gents,
Probably a very simple answer but I'm installing an outside light on a small porch The switch being just inside the door.
The light however, is about 600ml from the door on the outside, so if I drill straight through from the outside to the inside, once inside, the cable exit point straight in to the back of the light outside is going to be out of the zones.

I was just wondering how people overcome this issue? I thought about drilling at an angle so that when the hole comes through to the inside, it is by the switch but I think I'll need either x-ray vision or a hell of a lot of luck, or even both, to pull this off close enough to the switch to be within a 'zone'

Any help is appreciated. Thanks.
You have to wonder why there is very little in the responses when the OP doesn't let you know what his/ her experiences are, very difficult to respond to a post with little information
 

DPG

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Arms
Esteemed
Thomas, you do realise that the permissable zones extend outwards from all 4 sides of each accessory?
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #8
@telectrix This is what I'm wondering, so the supply (Taken from an existing ceiling rose inside the existing dwelling) for the new porch outside light comes down from above, within the prescribed zones straight down to the switch.
However, as the light is being positioned away from the door, so in theory, about 1ft to the left of where the switch zones would be, I'm not sure if I'm allowed to run the cable outside of the zone to get in to the back of the light fixture outside?

@DPG Yeah I get that the zones run either horizontally or vertically from the switch. I'll add an image to show you guys what I mean.

@Pete999 What info did you need? Apologies. Just thought I needed to pose the question that's all!?
I have my domestic installer qualifications. I've been doing little domestic jobs for about 6 months now. I am happy with the regs/testing and go over these vigorously before any install, but some real world experiences are throwing me off a little, hence the question above. I have a seasoned electrician, who I'm helping, who comes in advises me on the installs and checks all the work I do and does the bigger parts of the jobs (CCU changes etc) for the time being, I'm just doing the "beginner" stuff like installing RFC's, lighting circuits both 1st and 2nd fix, he will then do all the work at the CCU. I literally just run the new cables etc
Again, all of which I go over with the electrician to make sure it's being done right, he is happy that I'm capable of doing these either with him, or being told what to do while he does other jobs.
It's how I'm learning the trade so far. I've completed about 5/6 installs so far all of which I've had assistance on and have been told are ok by the electrician. Is that ok?
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #9
50483

So this is as if you were inside the porch. Looking out. The switch is just inside of the door. The supply drops down from above the joists. In the zone.

The outside light, in relation to the switch is being placed about 1ft to the left or so, the dotted line is the route I'd need to take the cable up the wall and drilled through to the outside in order to get the cable inside the back of the light fixture. But this goes "west" and then North, the "north part of the route is outside of the zones right?

I hope this helps. Go easy.
 
T

Toneyz

In this situation, I would drill through at an angle outside in to come into the zone of the switch.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #11
@anthonybragg This was my first thought tbh, but because I don't want to blow a brick out on the face of the house, I'm going to be drilling from outside inwards, and trying to get the correct angle so that I fall within the zone of the switch is going to be difficult.
It's what I'll probably have to do but I wondered if anyone had any tips or suggestions regarding the matter.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #14
@Dustydazzler dazzler I think that's my only option.

@suffolkspark It's the dotted line? where it first exits the switch it's within the zone, but when it then has to go up the wall to then be fed outside it leaves the 'zone' provided by the switch right? Just the part where it travels up the wall.
 

suffolkspark

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Arms
Esteemed
@suffolkspark It's the dotted line? where it first exits the switch it's within the zone, but when it then has to go up the wall to then be fed outside it leaves the 'zone' provided by the switch right? Just the part where it travels up the wall.
As somebody else said above the zones go vertical and horizontal EITHER side of the wall from the accessory. It is through the wall and vertical to the light so fine in my book. And the bbb
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #17
@Charlie_ Unfortunately not as there are coins built in to the brick work.

@suffolkspark I didn't think it'd be ok seeing as the accessory is on the outside and anyone inside the porch wouldn't know it's position? So of they were to drill in to the wall they might not take in to account the light the other side of the wall!?
 

Pete999

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Arms
Esteemed
@telectrix This is what I'm wondering, so the supply (Taken from an existing ceiling rose inside the existing dwelling) for the new porch outside light comes down from above, within the prescribed zones straight down to the switch.
However, as the light is being positioned away from the door, so in theory, about 1ft to the left of where the switch zones would be, I'm not sure if I'm allowed to run the cable outside of the zone to get in to the back of the light fixture outside?

@DPG Yeah I get that the zones run either horizontally or vertically from the switch. I'll add an image to show you guys what I mean.

@Pete999 What info did you need? Apologies. Just thought I needed to pose the question that's all!?
I have my domestic installer qualifications. I've been doing little domestic jobs for about 6 months now. I am happy with the regs/testing and go over these vigorously before any install, but some real world experiences are throwing me off a little, hence the question above. I have a seasoned electrician, who I'm helping, who comes in advises me on the installs and checks all the work I do and does the bigger parts of the jobs (CCU changes etc) for the time being, I'm just doing the "beginner" stuff like installing RFC's, lighting circuits both 1st and 2nd fix, he will then do all the work at the CCU. I literally just run the new cables etc
Again, all of which I go over with the electrician to make sure it's being done right, he is happy that I'm capable of doing these either with him, or being told what to do while he does other jobs.
It's how I'm learning the trade so far. I've completed about 5/6 installs so far all of which I've had assistance on and have been told are ok by the electrician. Is that ok?
Hi Thomas,
I'm reluctant to answer your question Mate for fear of annoying the Mods, but some information of your experience would be helpful in order to quantify my answers, it's nothing personal, nothing sinister, just some pointers on how to answer your questions50484ster, nothing
 

ruston

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Mentor
Arms
Esteemed
The zone incorporates both sides of the wall , so if the horizontal and vertical zones intersect it is in the zones if the supply to the switch is also .
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #22
@Pete999 that's cool man. I come here for help. If ya need more info then I'll happily pass it over. Cheers.

@ruston Thanks, I wasn't aware that it ran both sides of the wall. This is the stuff I'm learning on the job.

THANKS TO EVERYONE. I don't wanna miss anyone out. It's all been helpful as usual and helping me become better at this job. Only a few more years and I should be able to go solo! Cheers legends.
 
T

Toneyz

@anthonybragg This was my first thought tbh, but because I don't want to blow a brick out on the face of the house, I'm going to be drilling from outside inwards, and trying to get the correct angle so that I fall within the zone of the switch is going to be difficult.
It's what I'll probably have to do but I wondered if anyone had any tips or suggestions regarding the matter.
Use a thinner longe drill bit first then larger going from both sides if required.
 

Pete999

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Arms
Esteemed
@Pete999 that's cool man. I come here for help. If ya need more info then I'll happily pass it over. Cheers.

@ruston Thanks, I wasn't aware that it ran both sides of the wall. This is the stuff I'm learning on the job.

THANKS TO EVERYONE. I don't wanna miss anyone out. It's all been helpful as usual and helping me become better at this job. Only a few more years and I should be able to go solo! Cheers legends.
No need Thomas you seem to have all the answers you require, it's just a quirk of mine, nice to know the experience of people you are trying to help, if you wish to keep that private, then that's your prerogative, good luck
 

Pete999

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Arms
Esteemed
If you are in training or still learning can't see a problem Thomas "Westward10" will put you right
 
Hello Thomas if you are still undertaking any courses then with the correct details you can have access to the Trainee section. The requirement would be that you are currently or about to start a course. If you think this applies to you follow this link.
 

Des 56

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Arms
Esteemed
Thomas,for future refer to your regs book for how to protect a cable when its outside zone,a example would be swa,metal conduit,greater than 50mm deep
There are ways and means to overcome all you are likely to encounter on domestic work
 

Paignton pete

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Arms
Esteemed
No need Thomas you seem to have all the answers you require, it's just a quirk of mine, nice to know the experience of people you are trying to help, if you wish to keep that private, then that's your prerogative, good luck
I’ve also started looking at peoples profiles before answering. If they are not allowing me to see there profile I’m not responding also.
There is a lot I’m not responding too.
 

Risteard

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Arms
Esteemed
In these circumstances personally I bend a bit of steel conduit to serve the outside light. This removes the need for it to be run within the zones. The conduit must, of course, be earthed.
 
D

Deleted member 26818

If the conduit provides sufficient mechanical protection to protect the cable against penetration from screws or nails, it doesn’t need to be earthed.
 

telectrix

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Mentor
Arms
Esteemed
another option would be to raise the position of the switch to the same height as the outside light.
 
T

Toneyz

When house bashing new houses I used to take the view that if there was a light on the outside you could see it through the transverse no different to a socket in one bedroom backing on to another. the bit that I had trouble with was when a wall outside light is not where an exterior door is. Most cases I can move a double socket slightly or add an extra so that the outside light cable comes in inline with it.
 

Risteard

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Arms
Esteemed
Don’t know what kind of metal conduit you use?
The metal conduit I’ve used would.
Strange, because I've seen someone drill right through concealed steel conduit before and hit the singles contained within. I'm pretty sure Guidance Notes explicitly state that conduit wouldn't meet that requirement too and therefore needs to be earthed.
 
D

Deleted member 26818

An unlucky one.
Here is the bit about mechanical protection form 522.6.204:
“(iv) be provided with mechanical protection against damage sufficient to prevent penetration of the cable by nails, screws and the like.”
Can’t see anything there about protecting against drill bits (lucky or unlucky ones).
That being said, in my experience, if you start drilling into a wall with a masonry bit, and hit conduit, the conduit either starts ringing like a bell, or the drill bit mushrooms.
 
T

Toneyz

How many domestic electricians carry or if not got a conduit bender. And how would you earth the conduit with that being accessible?
 
D

Deleted member 26818

Use a lump of wood with a hole in it to bend the conduit, or make it up off site.
Doesn’t need earthing.
 
T

Toneyz

Use a lump of wood with a hole in it to bend the conduit, or make it up off site.
Doesn’t need earthing.
I can't see that happening especially when the electrician has just a days work wiring the house and is on another site the next day together with most domestic electricians/contractor not having one.
 

Risteard

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Arms
Esteemed
And how would you earth the conduit with that being accessible?
Mount a BESA box - say a through box for argument's sake on the end of it in the roofspace and a stuffing gland on the other end. Bring the cables in with a 4mm^2 earth and lug that and connect to the BESA box with an M4.
 
T

Toneyz

Mount a BESA box - say a through box for argument's sake on the end of it in the roofspace and a stuffing gland on the other end. Bring the cables in with a 4mm^2 earth and lug that and connect to the BESA box with an M4.
No disrespect, but whilst it is a solution realistically I can't see that happening on the domestic wiring scene. Outside lights are usually taken from the local downstairs lighting circuit.
 

Risteard

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Arms
Esteemed
No disrespect, but whilst it is a solution realistically I can't see that happening on the domestic wiring scene. Outside lights are usually taken from the local downstairs lighting circuit.
I've done it on a number of occasions in domestic installations.
 
T

Toneyz

I've done it on a number of occasions in domestic installations.
As I posted before your general development house bashing electrician is not going to be going metal conduit nor running the outside light from the switch on the ground floor all the way up to the loft. Sorry but this won't happen in the real world.
 

GBDamo

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Supporter
Bit left field but you could use an appliance plate at ceiling height in line with the outside light creating a zone in a line below.

Run the switch wire from this to the switch and back using the zone at the top of the wall and drop down to switch.

Then drop the switched live/N&E down from the appliance plate to the height of the O/S light and blast straight through.
 

Attachments

I thought the safe zones only extended to the other side of the wall, when the wall is less than 100mm thick? Which is fine for internal partitions, but a bit tricky on an external wall. Can't remember where I saw that, so happy to be corrected....
In these situations I try to align the light and the switch, or go down the diagonal drilling approach.
 
T

Toneyz

Bit left field but you could use an appliance plate at ceiling height in line with the outside light creating a zone in a line below.

Run the switch wire from this to the switch and back using the zone at the top of the wall and drop down to switch.

Then drop the switched live/N&E down from the appliance plate to the height of the O/S light and blast straight through.
Do you mean some sort of blank plate?
 
T

Toneyz

I thought the safe zones only extended to the other side of the wall, when the wall is less than 100mm thick? Which is fine for internal partitions, but a bit tricky on an external wall. Can't remember where I saw that, so happy to be corrected....
In these situations I try to align the light and the switch, or go down the diagonal drilling approach.
I think we agreed that in earlier posts.
 
T

Toneyz

So what you are saying is that if there is an outside wall light that on the inside wall if there is not anything to indicate the cable comes down the internal wall, not in a zone you would put a flex outlet or box with a blank plate in the wall. That's going to look great on a wall to have a random accessory plate there. A little way back I did post that I would consider installing a socket in line with outside lighting cable at least it wouldn't look out of place.
 
If anyone remembers that bloke BAS from some of the DIY forums....he used to go on and on and on...about this amongst everything else!
Safe zone is only formed by an accessory for cables serving that accessory...so the socket doesnt comply to the letter of the regs...however common sense suggests it would help things.
That said I got a call from a tenant the other day that couldn't work out why the electrics tripped when they put a mirror up....directly above a socket!
 

GBDamo

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Supporter
So what you are saying is that if there is an outside wall light that on the inside wall if there is not anything to indicate the cable comes down the internal wall, not in a zone you would put a flex outlet or box with a blank plate in the wall. That's going to look great on a wall to have a random accessory plate there. A little way back I did post that I would consider installing a socket in line with outside lighting cable at least it wouldn't look out of place.
Its a solution to a problem, never said it was perfect.

Picky sod:p
 
No....book in the office. However, I do recall looking it up some years back and realising that the master of pedantry was correct!
 
T

Toneyz

Its a solution to a problem, never said it was perfect.

Picky sod:p
I am not a Picky sod and every method that has been posted is a way of making the situation compliant it is just not aesthetically pleasing for a random blank plate being there and I don't think it would be acceptable I know it would 100% be not in a new build.
 

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