Changes to Landlord regulation in Scotland

[baldelectrician]

Noticed this on the Scottish Goverment website.

I put this in the Arms as I prefer the full and frank discussion here

Just thought I would post this for the total readership and to show the stark differnces between the Scottish Government and the RUK governments

Consultation on the Introduction of a Tenant Information Pack in the Private Rented Sector

The link to the Scottish Government website is HERE

In a nutshell they could make it a requirement to add in electrical certs and similar items;

The bit below suggests "reputable electrical contractors" but I think it makes sense to have a copy of a satisfactory electrical certificate (EICR) included in the pack


2.2 Electrical Safety

Your landlord must make sure electrical wiring and electrical appliances in your property are safe to use. Responsible landlords will carry out Portable Appliance Testing (PAT) on appliances and have a current electrical safety certificate from an approved contractor.

 

[merlinradioltd]

And if the "Responsible Landlord" doesn't comply do building insurance etc. can their chance to weasel out?

 

[merlinradioltd]

meant to say can use this as their chance to weasel out of any future claims.

 

[BigBreakfast]

I wonder just how many will adhere to these new rules, the few landlords that I do work for , are open to listening to me regarding electrical safety but I know of many others that could care less about compliance .

 

[baldelectrician]

The point of this is that it's mandatory- £500 fine if the LL doesn't do it

 

[BigBreakfast]

Well that may help more of them to comply and boost our workload too .

 

[merlinradioltd]

Well,well and this should/will impact on "Letting Agencies" as in the ones I know... Now apart from Mandatory and FINES etc.....Assume insurers will use as a wriggle out of as well. The slum landlords will ignore of course UNLESS the DWP come down on them and refuse to allow tenants rents to be paid. Tenants should of course demand proof that they have complied as well or threaten to withold rent....A can of worms about to burst open?

 

[baldelectrician]

I would suggest that electricians on here submit a response to this consultation

It may sway things from a "check" to a specific check including relevant BS7671 certs. It will then make it a level playing field

I was talking to a local letting agent who gets a gas and an electric check for £82 + vat.
Problem is the electrical check is a 'visual' and therefore useless.
He has not had 1 electrical check fail in atleast 50 done

 

[merlinradioltd]

I agree, one of my sons and his wife have been in letted accommodation recently while waiting to move into their newer flat and I am astonished at the lack of duty of care from the LandLord.....nothing gets fixed..I have been over twice in an emergency in the winter to use the filling loop to get their central heating working again or they would have to wait a week for a CH engineer (Mickey Mouse contract between Landlord and "some guy he knows")...lots of dodgy electrics and bodges galore...BUT if one day late with the rent...the Landlord will come a knocking.....same Landlord who is unobtainable when urgent items need repaired (like a window which won't shut!").

 

[baldelectrician]

There is presently the Private Housing Repair Panel (PHRP) in Scotland, but landlords fail to inform the tenants about this (although they have a duty to do so)

 

[oldtimer]

There isa few things with your post that worries me first of all "ResponsibleLandlords" is not a definition in law you are either a landlord or you are not i.e. a landlord is a property owner who rents it out for income a bit likea car owner must pay road tax and insurance if the car goes on the road so going to court to say sorry judge this does not apply to me as I am not a responsiblecar owner just will not wash.

Also get a electrical certification from a registered contractor well thedefinition of electrical certification will not be an EICR/PIR because as we know and I have witnessed some letting agents are getting rolling PIRs i.e. 10%of circuits tested every year instead of getting a PIR/EICR every time there isa change of occupancy so first of all rolling PIRs were never meant for rentedproperty they were meant for large commercial and industrial building i.e.managed testing.

Now if it is a EICR then the landlord is who lets out for short term i.e.3-6or9 months is not going to stomach that so my thinking it will be get a mandatory EICR every 3-5 years with electrical safety checks every change of occupant.

Now for the electrical certification must be completed by a registered contractor now they really are in a minefield remember there is no legal obligation to register with the schemies i.e. Select an NICEIC in Scotland whybecause under the European Act of free trade and British anti competition rulesthis would be a direct violation against an individual’s right to trade i.e. if they have the correct legal qualifications and PL insurance registered with HMRC then legally they are good to go forcing them to join an organization is a step to far plus their legal advisors who would have to remind them of this especiallyif it can be proven that Select and NICEIC were advising on this in the firstplace.

Registered contractor should read Approved

 

[BigBreakfast]

Have to agree with you on this, there should be no force put on to join scheme if you are fully qualified and insured!

 

[oldtimer]

I have just sent this email to the consultaion department any views good or bad is welcome..


Dear Sir or Madam
Ihave read through your consultation pack and would like to highlight asection in it that I have listed below you may want your legal team to look at with regards to the “approved contractor” definition as I would point out that there are 2 electrical “Scheme providers” in Scotland Select andNICEIC .

My understanding of the European Act of freetrade is that no individual should be forced to join an organisation against his or her will and that they should not be excluded or discriminated from conducting and running their business because they are not a member of an organisation. I would also point out that there is currently no legal requirement to register with either of the 2 organisations named above.

I would also point out that if the consultation of this paper has included the view and recommendations of the 2 Scheme providers named above then would this not be a conflict of interest for these 2 organisations as they would financially benefit from any enforcement from a new Scottish act or law.

My understanding is that if an individual has all the legal qualifications and the necessary insurance cover plus they are registered with HMRC then in the eyes of the law they have a legal right to trade

A couple of other points Portable ApplianceTesting or as it is put PAT does not exist under the current code of practice.The correct legal term is In-Service Inspection and Testing of ElectricalEquipment as this encompasses fixed electrical equipment within a dwelling so a definition of what equipment is to be tested will have tobe produced as a built in electric oven is a fixed appliance and not a portable one. Also what is the definition of a “current electrical safety certificate” does this mean an EICR Electrical Inspection Condition Report i.e.the replacement for the Periodic Inspection Report or is this a supplementary test on top of an EICR and if so what are the specifications or limitations as gettinga full EICR for a property every time there is a change of occupancy is in my view going to financially impact the rental industry that in turn means extra cost for the tenant.


2.2 Electrical Safety
Your landlord must make sure electrical wiring and electrical appliances in your
property are safe to use. Responsible landlords will carry out Portable Appliance
Testing (PAT) on appliances and have acurrent electrical safety certificate from an
approved contractor

 

[BigBreakfast]

All salient points old timer, hope they get back to you soon with some clarification ?

 

[oldtimer]

Just toadd I would have nothing against the Schemies if they ran it the way it shouldbe but we are not blind the hand out memberships to those who pay but I haveyet to hear of one of them ejecting a member through bad workmanship the thingis we already have regulations governing us we don’t need somebody on our backwith their opinion that changes like the weather cases in point would be youmust measure the Zs on a lighting circuit at the light point then Megger bringout the 1700 series that can give a 2 wired measurement at a switch saving youfrom going up that ladder and that’s ok or no you must run a cpc in conduit butwill now say well you can use the conduit as an earth in an older installationwhere you cannot get access to the draw boxes i.e. in the guys flat under thelaminated floor upstairs.

Schemies are ok for training and assisting with regulations and that’s fine byme but we are now watching NICEIC trying to poach members from other Schemieson a free transfer (reference NICEIC announcement in the ProfessionalElectrician this month) so the minute they have an incentive to get more memberfor financial gain then they have lost the moral high ground as they are likeBG and the AA they have now become sales driven and that cannot be right as theBanks ,Insurance, Timeshare companies victims will testify to.

 

[baldelectrician]

Oldtimer
I agree with part of your post.
I think that membership of an organisation should not be essential, but being able to prove compotence should be a prerequisate- insurance, qualifications asessment of works by third party etc

The building regs ask for select or niciec or to meet the standards of same

 

[oldtimer]

Oldtimer
I agree with part of your post.
I think that membership of an organisation should not be essential, but being able to prove compotence should be a prerequisate- insurance, qualifications asessment of works by third party etc

The building regs ask for select or niciec or to meet the standards of same

Yep I can see where you are coming from but we have a conflict of interests here we have the assesor selling you the courses that they want to to be proficiant in or in other words during an assesment we feel you would benifit from this ?????? course and it so happens i have the broushures here with my name on it for reference purposes you understand.

You could also say that these are not for profit organisations but remember if they have a surplus at the end of a year then they can vote themselves a bigger pay rise and bonus / pension pots and if you think this cannot happen well look at the charities commissioner who found this is exactly what they were doing because they were sitting on a cash mountain sadly it human nature but some poor sod still has to pay in the end

 

[baldelectrician]

The problem (from other sides) is that if you are not on a scheme you are not good enough

I see a fair bit of shoddy work by 'registered' companies, but little is done as you are asked to provide "evidence" that means asking the customer to get involved in a complaint about another company- which won't happen

Unfortunately it's the lesser of 2 evils

The schemes do have a conflict of interests- I have been in both (SELECT and NICEIC) and find NIC more moneygrabbing and unreasonable, although SELECT have their faults

 

[oldtimer]

The problem (from other sides) is that if you are not on a scheme you are not good enough

I see a fair bit of shoddy work by 'registered' companies, but little is done as you are asked to provide "evidence" that means asking the customer to get involved in a complaint about another company- which won't happen

Unfortunately it's the lesser of 2 evils

The schemes do have a conflict of interests- I have been in both (SELECT and NICEIC) and find NIC more moneygrabbing and unreasonable, although SELECT have their faults

I agree with all of the above and like you have seen some major shoddy work from a registered company like monting a 15 way Wylex CU on top of a 50 year old Wylex metal DB take it from me it was a sight indeed to see this CU in mid air and the 2 badged (polo shirts) so proud of their work.

But lets get back to the real world there has to be restrictions on these companies because if there isnt any then they will run riot a bit like the banks we dont care about your mortgage we only care about our pay/bonus/pensions and I think you will agree it will take more than a code of practis. i will leave with BG once a great service company now a sales driven monster that puts their staff (service techs) under pressure because their sales targets have not been acheived and to me thats the way NICEIC is being run

 

[baldelectrician]

The problem (from both our interests) is that if they don't force landlords to get the electrics checked then we will be in the same place in 5 or 10 years time

It's a double edged sword- you don't specify a scheme or route to verify compotence then landlords will just get 5 week wonders to do the checks and there will be no rise in standards
If you specify a scheme (or suggest a scheme and alternative route) then you create a closed shop- with some policing

I went to a landlord check by a letting agent last year and found a 2 page 'landlord cert'- one partial page of test results and one page saying the appliances were ok, done by a company in Renfrewshire who were registered.

 

[baldelectrician]

I think we have to push for the mandatory checks (by a compotent company / person) to raise the standards in rental dwellings

How do you justify the Gas Safe scheme if there should be no monopoly?

Better to have a scheme that we all have to obey rather than have doubt and joiners etc doing electrical checks (if they are not compotent)

 

[oldtimer]

Yep I wasin the same boat as you the letting agent asked if I could quote for a new CUthe property was a cottage where an old lady lived and she had stuff everywhereanyway I got some low reading on my survey so I asked the letting agent if shehad any test certificates/sheets she said yes for the past 2 years so she sentme 1 sheet (copied out of the BRB) with 2 circuits tested and at the end of the2 circuits was 2010 and 2011 i.e. one circuit tested every year (rolling PIR)and yes they were registered.

So again that takes us back to an individual doing 4 PIR/EICRs a day (drive by)and yes you could say closed shop but here is the rub the minute they make thismandatory then companies with no electrical experience start a"Nationwide" test and inspect company up they will not take on andpay the going rate to old heads like us no they will pay some 5 week wonder £6or maybe £7 an hour to do the 4 or more EICRs a day all with the blessing andsupport from the scheme provider who remember is on a cut (1%-1.5%)of theirprofits after they hit £250,000 turnover (reference Select joining application)or in other words we will be in the same boat as when we were in the EETPU runby Frank Chapel who was not interested in the single member No instead thescheme provider will allow these big companies to like the banks policethemselves.

Just to point out I am not being negative for the sake of it I would just likea level playing surface where the law stipulates exactly what it expects from"Electrical Checks" on a rented property because I know and you alsoknow that if this were the case then the big companies could not competebecause they are more interested in profit than safety.

The only thing that gets me on this subject is that the Schemies and these bigcompanies have a financial gain to lobby (push through) these new laws thatwill put guys like me and you out of business and turn what should be responsibleelectrical safety checks into drive by checks that defeats the whole purpose ofdoing them in the first place

 

[oldtimer]

Just when you could not think it could get any worse i got a reply from my email they have sent me the proposals but wait for it I am not supposed to show it to anybody as it is under embargo until 30/03/12 and they are only trying to introduce BL&^%%$$£ PART P in Scotland

Well I better get down to Tesco for a application form

 

[baldelectrician]

Just when you could not think it could get any worse i got a reply from my email they have sent mr the proposals but wait for it I am not supposed to show it to anybody as it is under embargo until 30/03/12 and they are only trying to introduce BL&^%%$$£ PART P in Scotland

Well I better get down to Tesco for a application form

There will be no part P in Scotland
As far as the mandatory regulation goes it will get lots of work for electricians locally- now they check 10% (probably 5% correctly). If this happens they will have to get >90% checked, there will be 9 x the work in rental properties than there is now.

 

[BigBreakfast]

Well here's hoping that any change is for the better, not only for the customers/clients, but also for the honest, reliable, trustworthy, competent sparky?

 

[pushrod]

Just when you could not think it could get any worse i got a reply from my email they have sent me the proposals but wait for it I am not supposed to show it to anybody as it is under embargo until 30/03/12 and they are only trying to introduce BL&^%%$$£ PART P in Scotland

Well I better get down to Tesco for a application form

I had something similar from an all party communities and local government committee, with the embargo til 30/3/12 all over it(this is a private part of the forum), basically saying PART P was wonderful and that they want to strengthen it. No mention of qualified people, just people who are in schemes. Scant acknowledgement of the conflict of interests of such schemes. Wonder how much niceic elecsa and napit contributed to have dinner with them. At least the government had been looking into having less regulation and less associated cost!
What do they suggest - health warnings on sockets saying only registered people can do most electrical work!

Closed shop for the Part P scams!