coding on commercial

[Risteard]

They both complied with the regulations at the time

So what?

they both present no danger to anyone competant to be working on it.

In your opinion. Different people will hold different opinions, so ultimately it will be up to the inspector carrying out the inspection.

 

[Risteard]

Incidentally, further investigation appears to suggest that the wiring of final circuits in phase colours has been prohibited by the IEE Wiring Regulations since at least the 12th Edition.

See IET Forums - Conductor Identification

 

[shanky887614]

risteard the regs are not retrospective

 

[Risteard]

risteard the regs are not retrospective

Firstly, as I have pointed out if this has been installed since at least the 12th Edition then it did not comply. Secondly, it is overly simplistic to state that "the Regs are not retrospective."

What the HSE actually state is that an installation designed and constructed to an earlier Edition of the Regulations does not NECESSARILY imply that the installation is unsafe. Ergo, it also does not necessarily imply that it is safe.

 

[davesparks]

This is getting silly,

The line and neutral are wired in legitimate colours from the pre-harmonisation era. any competent person will recognise these colours and will carry out safe isolation and will carry out testing prior to switching on after any alterations.

 

[Risteard]

This is getting silly,

The line and neutral are wired in legitimate colours from the pre-harmonisation era.

But they're not. Final circuits were not permitted to be wired that way.

 

[davesparks]

But they're not. Final circuits were not permitted to be wired that way.

Red, yellow and blue were the line colours of the time, black was the neutral. Any competent person encountering a SP circuit wired in blue and black in a RYB installation will know what is going on.

 

[Risteard]

Red, yellow and blue were the line colours of the time, black was the neutral. Any competent person encountering a SP circuit wired in blue and black in a RYB installation will know what is going on.

I know. But only red and black was permitted for a single phase final circuit, so blue and black was not a permitted arrangement.

 

[shanky887614]

I know. But only red and black was permitted for a single phase final circuit, so blue and black was not a permitted arrangement.

where does it say it is not permitted?

its common to find multiple phases at some switches with different colours to identity them.

where does it say it needs to be red?

you can use any colour as long as it isnt g+y

 

[davesparks]

where does it say it is not permitted?

its common to find multiple phases at some switches with different colours to identity them.

where does it say it needs to be red?

you can use any colour as long as it isnt g+y

Currently it says it in the 17th edition, prior to that it was the 16th, I don't have a 15th to check and I'll maybe have a look in my earlier regs books later.

 

[Risteard]

where does it say it is not permitted?

its common to find multiple phases at some switches with different colours to identity them.

where does it say it needs to be red?

you can use any colour as long as it isnt g+y

Before the 16th Edition it was permitted on the SUPPLY side of a three-phase distribution board, i.e. it was prohibited for final circuits fed from it. And as I said, every Edition since at least the 12th Edition stated this before the practice was prohibited for distribution circuits also.

 

[shanky887614]

Before the 16th Edition it was permitted on the SUPPLY side of a three-phase distribution board, i.e. it was prohibited for final circuits fed from it. And as I said, every Edition since at least the 12th Edition stated this before the practice was prohibited for distribution circuits also.

which reg, im curious and would like to have a look

i dont recall seeing it in bs7671

 

[Leesparkykent]

which reg, im curious and would like to have a look

i dont recall seeing it in bs7671

Haven't got the book near me but would it be around table 51 and 514 reg?

 

[shanky887614]

Haven't got the book near me but would it be around table 51 and 514 reg?

put a sticker onto 514.14.1 and it complies so no code

nothing wrong with using black/grey in single phase.

it is good practise as it shows it is fed from L2/L3 from a TPN supply


if you use brown on a supply fed from the black phase technically its wrong because you are saying it is on L1 but its fed from L2


nothing says you must use brown for single just you must comply with 514.4.

which says L2 is black.

so if its fed from L2 you should feed it with black and blue for single phase

 

[7029 dave]

I remember Working in an block of flats, build late60's early 70's, at light switch, perm black, switch line white all in conduit.

 

[Leesparkykent]

put a sticker onto 514.14.1 and it complies so no code

nothing wrong with using grey/black in single phase.

it is good practise as it shows it is fed from L2/L3 from a TPN supply

I'm staying out of this one lol. But I take it that was the section in the book?

 

[shanky887614]

I remember Working in an block of flats, build late60's early 70's, at light switch, perm black, switch line white all in conduit.

if i recall didnt they use white instead of yellow for a time? (R W B)

 

[Risteard]

put a sticker onto 514.14.1 and it complies so no code

I don't have the book on me at present, but I can absolutely assure you that it is not permitted to wire a single phase circuit other than in brown and blue. (You will note that it states for single phase the colours are brown and blue.)

A single phase circuit fed from a three-phase distribution board is still a single phase circuit, and therefore is not exempt from the Regulation.

 

[Dcf]

from memory i seem to recall wiring final circuits in phase colours around 90/ 91 ish.
don't see the issue here tbh. its to previous set of regs.
note it and move on to the next job.
the only problem i came across is lads getting yellow phase conductors mixed up with g/y ....with predictable results.

 

[Risteard]

from memory i seem to recall wiring final circuits in phase colours around 90/ 91 ish.
don't see the issue here tbh. its to previous set of regs.

The point is that whilst it was often done it was never actually permitted. So it wasn't to a previous set of Regs, unless the 11th Edition or earlier permitted it.