Discuss Cooker Isolation and Appliance Isolation Regulations in the Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

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S

Spazz

Hi all

I need the regulations (in BGB) that apply to the cooker isolation and appliance isolation (plug under worktop - isolation above)

The reason I ask is these Kitchens I am installing the design has allowed for the washing mashing to be placed under the sink drainer and the kitchen fitter wants the cooker isolation within 300mm of the cooker to make it easier for him to install the worktop - as this is what the other electrician did (saying that he also installed sockets directly over sinks - I know this is not allowed!)

Thanks in advanced
 
OP
S

Spazz

ok thanks sedgy - the kitchen fitter wants the cooker isolation at 150mm and the washing machine isolation at 2m from washer next to the cooker isolation - so they are clear of the sink worktop - the set up is a U shape with the cooker in the middle and sink on one side.

Thank again
 

sedgy34

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If your going to be working with this kitchen fitter just do it you will get on alot better


1500 is normally for a granite upstand on the work top I go for 1100 if only a100mm upstand
 
OP
S

Spazz

I go in on day 1 rip out all electrics and install a new ring in the kitchen, change the light to a fluorescent light, install a new cooker circuit and install an extractor fan
Kitchen fitter goes in on day 2 and installs a new kitchen
Tiler goes in on day 3 and tiles
Painter goes in on day 4 and paints

If anything is wrong there is no option to go back and if anyone knocks the socket or anything they don't tell me or anything which really gets on my nerves!

We are doing 5 kitchens a week, half also require a new CU as well - and they still expect the whole electrics done in 1 day, all in trunking.

These are council houses - I had an apprentice helping me to start but he could not pick up a spirit level not long use one plus he could not be bothered so he only lasted 4 days and he was gone! (plus he could not use a tape measure - everything he did I had to redo myself)

This kitchen fitter had worked with the other sparky for 1 year but because the other sparky wanted more money he left
This kitchen fitter only moans when he changes the plans and a socket is in the way because he changed the plans - nothing to do with me


The council inspector is the bigger problem - he will pull anything and everything - he pulled the other day a junction box placed in a cupboard - he wants all junction boxes in the roof void (even though you cant inspect them!) - I crimp everything so waiting to see what this inspector says about that
 

sedgy34

Solar Guru
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You need to print off the regs to show him as he's asking for things that don't comply he's an inspector who know f all!!! Probably some arse licker

I had an enquiry a few months ago to do the same as this
i didn't bother replying as they can end up costing you money or they don't pay so I wasn't going to be a busy fool quantity wasn't a problem as ther was 2 years work there
 
OP
S

Spazz

I dont ever meet this inspector - he inspects 1 month after work finished.

The brief states:
The kitchen must be on its own circuit
The ring for the rest of the house must be joined using JB (which they provide - not MF)
The new ring must go back to the CU with a new 32A MCB or RCBO and be RCD protected
All joints (inc JB) must be placed in roof space
All must comply with BS7671
Only Minor Works Certificates will be excepted - dont know how this works with a new CU - they have a EIC from me - sod them!
Extractor fan must be installed (sometimes impossible due to no external wall)

They supply all parts - JB, CU, MCB, RCBO, 2.5 T&E, 6mm T&E, sockets, back boxes, trunking, FCUs, fan isolation, cooker isolation and access point

no crimps, no heat shrink, no earth slaving

they say I only have to provide labor - they pay me £115 per kitchen - I have to spend £15 on extra parts I need (above) and notification and fuel and bridge toll (£0.75 each way - 4 times a day) (£30 per kitchen in total)

I get extra for CUs - not sure how much extra


But its either this or £110 per week on benefits & housing benefit (£80 per week)
 

TPES

Regular EF Member
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1,546
It sounds as If it actually costs you to do these kitchens.. I can't see where any profit at all comes in.
 
OP
S

StuSpiers

Been there done that, got the t-shirt.

You won't make any money that's for sure, but you may learn something.
 
OP
S

Spazz

I make £80 for a days work - crap I know! - £400 per week, thats after all my insurance, NAPIT, notifications, fuel, Bridge fees, and anything I have to buy

Thats £1733 per month - I cant touch that on benefits or any other job.
 

sedgy34

Solar Guru
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As I said earlier busy fool
Out of the £115 take out your fuel and your time doing certificate and the tax your left with £60 for working your tayters off to get it done in 1 day
no thanks!!
Q, are you a time served spark
 

Guitarist

Regular EF Member
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5,250
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Norfolk
I dont ever meet this inspector - he inspects 1 month after work finished.

The brief states:
The kitchen must be on its own circuit
The ring for the rest of the house must be joined using JB (which they provide - not MF)
The new ring must go back to the CU with a new 32A MCB or RCBO and be RCD protected
All joints (inc JB) must be placed in roof space
All must comply with BS7671
Only Minor Works Certificates will be excepted - dont know how this works with a new CU - they have a EIC from me - sod them!
Extractor fan must be installed (sometimes impossible due to no external wall)

They supply all parts - JB, CU, MCB, RCBO, 2.5 T&E, 6mm T&E, sockets, back boxes, trunking, FCUs, fan isolation, cooker isolation and access point

no crimps, no heat shrink, no earth slaving

they say I only have to provide labor - they pay me £115 per kitchen - I have to spend £15 on extra parts I need (above) and notification and fuel and bridge toll (£0.75 each way - 4 times a day) (£30 per kitchen in total)

I get extra for CUs - not sure how much extra


But its either this or £110 per week on benefits & housing benefit (£80 per week)
It states all work to BS7671, so therefore MF connections in roof space implied.
Btw, very few building inspectors know anything about electrics in my experience, so you must do what is required.

You are correct... New circuit needs an EIC, so make that clear, along with extra time needed to fill it in.
 
OP
S

Spazz

Just been reading the Napit MWC and it says that is enough for 1 new circuit?? I always thought a new circuit was EIC. Even though I am doing 2 new circuits so hence the need for me to do the EIC.

What part in 7671 can I use to clear my point about the below:
1. only MF connections above ceiling
2. only EIC can be issued not MWC
3. Distance from sink and cooker for isolation


I am a NAPIT registered spark, with 7 years experience (only 1 year registered - rest been notifying to LABC as been doing work for grandfather and he would not register with anyone!)


The £35 includes everything including the notifications to NAPIT and the annual fee (divided by number of kitchens I do per year) and all fuel and anything I have to provide (inc servicing my meter and insurances).

I have got these kitchens (without ding CU change) down to 6-7 hours now and can see room to bring it down by another hour if needed.

Again I been so slow the last 2 months and this work is better than being on benefits
 

malcolmsanford

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Kent working back out there yet again
Just been reading the Napit MWC and it says that is enough for 1 new circuit?? I always thought a new circuit was EIC. Even though I am doing 2 new circuits so hence the need for me to do the EIC.

What part in 7671 can I use to clear my point about the below:
1. only MF connections above ceiling Reg 526.3 (vi) appertains to Maintenance free Junction boxes

2. only EIC can be issued not MWC Appendix 6 page 394 concerning MEIWC
The minor Works certificate is intended to be used for additions and alterations to an installation that do not extend to the provision of a new circuit

3. Distance from sink and cooker for isolation There is nothing in the regs concerning directly the distances for either a cooker control unit/Isolator or a socket outlet
In regards to isolation remote from equipment read and quote reg 537.2.1.5
Sockets you have to be guided by section 522 with relation to external influences and 522.3



I am a NAPIT registered spark, with 7 years experience (only 1 year registered - rest been notifying to LABC as been doing work for grandfather and he would not register with anyone!)


The £35 includes everything including the notifications to NAPIT and the annual fee (divided by number of kitchens I do per year) and all fuel and anything I have to provide (inc servicing my meter and insurances).

I have got these kitchens (without ding CU change) down to 6-7 hours now and can see room to bring it down by another hour if needed.

Again I been so slow the last 2 months and this work is better than being on benefits

.......................................
 
OP
S

Spazz

Thanks I will approach LA tomorrow regarding these - they have been moaning that I have been issuing the EICs and not the MWC. And they are not happy with compression fixings or soldering but clearly they don't have a clue!
 

Guitarist

Regular EF Member
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Easiest way of getting MF connections is to use the Line enclosure and MF kit. Very quick and you will know that it complies.
 

telectrix

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they're not expensive. go onto Line Products website or pm Line Products on the forum. hager and ashley also do M/F JBs.
 
OP
S

Spazz

Only problem like I said above is that the council are meant to supply everything I need - I am only meant to supply labor and notifications & Certification

Im already losing £15 per kitchen because I have to supply some accessories
 

telectrix

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tell the inspector, or whoever is running the job ( show malc's comments) tell'em if they want the work to comply6, then they'll have tio supply the correct gear.
 
OP
S

Spazz

The problem is not the gear- the problem is that the designer clearly does not know what the hell their doing!
The tell us to do something and supply the kit that wont meet regs the way they want it.

The other problem is this contract is already a year in, and the other sparky has been doing it with the kit and issuing MWC and installing sockets directly over sinks and hobs, etc


Every time I say anything they just say well the other sparky managed it!
 
OP
S

Spazz

not a clue!

I keep hearing different stories

I am wondering if the other sparky has gone on holiday and Im covering (being lied to)

Also I have heard from another local spark I have worked closely to that this firm (previous spark) has lost their NIC reg twice already and got it back last year so I am really not sure whats going on there.
 

telectrix

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so next job. do it ewxactly as they say, then on the cert. enter the non compliances as deviations.
 
OP
S

Spazz

The 1st kitchen I did I used the JB, put them just above the worktop height so they cant be seen from standing - building inspector would not sign it off
The 2nd kitchen I used compression - the building inspector would not sign it off because a small gap between where the trunking meet (only 3mm) - he cant see that I used the compression as these are now in the roof void
The 3rd kitchen I could not install an extractor fan as the only 2 external walls either had a full size window or went into next door - building inspector would not sign it off
The 4th kitchen I am awaiting for the inspector to see in the morning to tell me if he will sign it off or not!


The 1st kitchen I changed to compression fix - got to wait now for BI
The 2nd kitchen the painter filled the small gap with dec croak - still waiting for BI
The 3rd - Not a clue how I am going to install at fan in this!
The 4th - we will see

The 4th needed a new CU as the old one only had 8 slots - all 8 taken
I am waiting to see how much the LA will pay for the new CU change (they supplied CU and MCBs) - knowing them prob only another £50 - it took me 4 hours inc testing! - I wont be happy!
 

sedgy34

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Nicholas! You can get a window fan kit for the fan get them to cut the glass or just tell them to get some mug to do there crap work and sign it off for peanuts your not covering your costs clearly and only you will be out of pocket and still have nothing to show for what you have earned from them.

They are supplying the materials so they control everything and you don't make any money from it but this goes for the plumbing, carpentry etc too they get it all on the cheap because who they are. Don't forget any money to be made is there's
 

Guitarist

Regular EF Member
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Nic, YOU are the one carrying out the work, and signing it off. YOU must be happy that it all complies and is safe. To hell with what anyone else has allegedly managed to do, this is YOUR work.
I totally agree, you should not have to supply materials to comply with BS7671, if materials are meant to be provided. It sounds like you need a proper meeting with Building Control to sort all this out, rather than doing as you are told and then hoping it will be ok. There is no reason, if you comply with electrical and building regs, why there should be any failures regarding signing off.
I feel very sorry for you in this instance, and hope you get it all sorted out soon.
 
OP
S

Spazz

I would install a window fan but they have not supplied one!

Like I said I am stuck between a brick and a hard place here

Earn £80 (after my costs) per kitchen (5 per week) or go back on benefits and get £110 per week as well as HB (£190 per week)

Even after tax thats £300 per week - still £110 more and it gets me out!

I did get a full industrial EICR off it as well (52 circuits at £20 per circuit) plus all repairs for that install as well.

There is not enough work down here at the moment to throw this in! I wish there was!
 

trev

Regular EF Member
The thing is Nic, it's like Guitarist says YOU are signing work off as compliant when YOU know that it is not. Are you ok with that?
If it were to go horribly wrong and you ended up answering to a court for your actions do you think that court would accept "I needed the work and the money" as a valid excuse for these non compliances.
So you either have to stand up to these people and for what you know is right or get the building inspector to sign off on all this. In your position I'd be telling all and sundry what the deal is and I would not be putting my name on any cert for non compliant work. As far as this £15 per kitchen out of your pocket, no way man
 
OP
S

Spazz

Thanks Guitarist

The LABC have nothing to do with it - its the Public Housing Building Officer who is the pain in the a***.

I have been doing these for just over a week so far - (6 days in total) - I am going to see the main contractor tomorrow and find out what is on the list that he has to order from - for heaven sake they don't even supply earth slaving so I need to see if that's the contractors F*** up or the LA.

As far as the crimps I am still waiting to see how the want me to join the ring back together!

I will keep everyone informed
 
OP
S

Spazz

everything I do is to regs!

They wanted me to use JB - they went in kitchen - that complies
They wanted cables joined in roof - I compress fitted them - that complies
I messed up and forgot to fill the 3mm gap in trunking - that complies
I am issuing EICs instead of MWC - that complies

They have not had an invoice yet so that £15 is being added to each kitchen!

Not sure where you think it dont comply!


The only thing that dont comply is the way they wanted it - I refuse to do it that way!
 

sedgy34

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I would install a window fan but they have not supplied one!

Like I said I am stuck between a brick and a hard place here

Earn £80 (after my costs) per kitchen (5 per week) or go back on benefits and get £110 per week as well as HB (£190 per week)

Even after tax thats £300 per week - still £110 more and it gets me out!

I did get a full industrial EICR off it as well (52 circuits at £20 per circuit) plus all repairs for that install as well.

There is not enough work down here at the moment to throw this in! I wish there was!
Look at the bigger picture
if you can work alone you can subby for £120 a day and still have materials supplied and still earn more and not have anything to worry about
 
OP
S

Spazz

See my previous posts - last month there were 22 electricians in a 10 mile radius of me - there are now 40 electricians on the Competent Persons Site
There are now 18 NAPIT registered in this area - there were 2 (plus me) when I first registered

This area only has a population of about 50,000 maximum and most are council and HA let - there is not enough work for that number of sparkies

The local college has just had 48 new electricians qualify - all looking for work and there aint any for them - most of them are going to end up in Tesco or JCP.
 
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