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ngunge

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Hello, I would like to know what the regs say on crimping 240v 1.5mm twin and earth (single core) using red straight through crimps...

Is it legal/safe/can it be done and pass inspection etc etc?

What can I do/use instead of using a chockblock (connnector block) to join 1.5mm twin and earth together in trunking?

Crimping, soldering, heatshrinking?

Thanks
 
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Spudmiester

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #2
I have never seen using through-crimps as a problem. Done it loads and consider it to be a better connection than chocky block.

Think about it, ring crimps are used on motor terminals, whats the difference.
 
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Cirrus

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  • #3
Yup, through crimps are perfectly acceptable but where you can, make them accessible so in the event of a fault you can remedy quickly. I have to chisel a wall tomorrow and take tiles off and half a kitchen out to sort a failed crimp out!!
 
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montybaber

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  • #4
Personally I would'nt inline crimp solid strand cables but I appear to be in a minority :).

As for ring crimps on motor terminals, every motor I have ever wired or seen wired has always been with stranded conductors.

Just my personal opinion.
 
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claire_r

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  • #5
id use a chocky block myself, the connections are supposed to be accessible for inspection and testing and by using crimps that makes it difficult.
 
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Spudmiester

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  • #6
Disagree with both above posts.

Have seen and used solid conductors in SWA for motor terminations. You dont see it much these days, but some 20 years ago it was quite common and still can be found in insallations today.

Chocky block can (and has) loosened as the copper relaxes, and can create a high resistance joint, in some instances I have seen it go rusty. Steel screws into brass, dis-similar metals, dont like it. However, if done properly with the correct tool (not side cutters) a copper tube crimp will actually fuse to the copper cable it is crimped to, creating a very sound joint with little chance of mechanical or electrical failure, though that is not absolute in all cases just incase anyone starts getting pedantic.
Infact if done correctly, a crimp joint pulled with a pair of pliers should not come off, the cable should snap first.

Yes , joints should be accessible, no one is saying the shouldn't. Plastering crimps into a wall is a no no, along with chock block and joint boxes . I am sure we have all found dodgy joints in the wall or behind the tiles at some point.

We use lug crims on large cables, why not on small ones !
 
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montybaber

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  • #7
Have seen and used solid conductors in SWA for motor terminations. You dont see it much these days, but some 20 years ago it was quite common and still can be found in insallations today.
I stand corrected :) but then again i have only been in the business 13yrs still.....it not common practice now so maybe theres a reason why that is

I agree about chocky blocks tbh but I still would'nt inline crimp solid conductors, the crimps mentioned were not the copper tube type but the pre insulated tin coated copper type.

Obviously in an ideal world replacing the cable would be the best option but personally the next best thing would be a small enclosure mounted next to the trunking with din-rail mounted terminals inside (as long as you have sufficient length on the conductors) this is an easily accessible point for future inspection.
 
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Spudmiester

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  • #8
Obviously in an ideal world replacing the cable would be the best option but personally the next best thing would be a small enclosure mounted next to the trunking with din-rail mounted terminals inside (as long as you have sufficient length on the conductors) this is an easily accessible point for future inspection.[/quote]


Couldnt agree more !:)
 
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andypandy

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #9
using a din rail would be good but depends on the person paying the bill
 
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wayne

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  • #10
ngrunge original question was what do the regs say?
reg 134.1.4 no specific method mentioned ,personally i prefer strip connectors properly sized and kept dry should minimise rusting and loosening (but not prevent it forever)
just seen you intend to do it inside trunking NO ! joints should be in a joint box the amount of shocks that occur when joints come loose in trunking....
 
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A

andypandy

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  • #11
different people have always told me different things i think both crimps and block both r just as good but to a certain point it is upto the sparks to c which one is more suited to the job being done
 
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montybaber

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  • #12
using a din rail would be good but depends on the person paying the bill
very true :), cheaper option and probably the most 'real world' option would be an end box mounted to the trunking with chocky blocks inside (or crimps lol)

btw.......I have nothing against crimps :) just with using them on small solid core cables
 
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andypandy

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  • #13
i have found that even when using blocks on small cable the screw can be over done and the core could be damaged and fail at a later date
 
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Spudmiester

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  • #14
cant see a problem on small solid cores, as long as the right size crimp is used, with the proper setting on a proper crimper. Most failures I have seen are when side cutters or pliers,grips etc have been used instead. Hell, even seen main earth cables (16mm) crimped with cutters ! Its not on !!
 
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stevie h

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #15
A crimped joint doesn't need to be accessible and done right should not fail , jb,s and connector block must be accessible ........ Well thats what i was told the other week when i was on the 17th course :)
 
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Spudmiester

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  • #16
A crimped joint doesn't need to be accessible and done right should not fail , jb,s and connector block must be accessible ........ Well thats what i was told the other week when i was on the 17th course :)
Aahhh. Now we know. Very interesting !
 
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wayne

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  • #17
A crimped joint doesn't need to be accessible and done right should not fail , jb,s and connector block must be accessible ........ Well thats what i was told the other week when i was on the 17th course :)
reg526.3(iv)says he's right .still needs to be in a joint box
 
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andypandy

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  • #18
i have been told that crimped connections do not have to be accessible as the connection is counted as a solid joint so should not increase or decrease any testing reading that r done on the circult they r fitted to
 
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M8147UK

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  • #19
why not just use the terminal free connectors which use the spring clip method they do not need to be accessible if the are no terminals with screws
 
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Spudmiester

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #20
reg526.3(iv)says he's right .still needs to be in a joint box
What about being in trunking (as in the metal 4x4 stuff) That must count as mechanical protection to be sure !
 
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andypandy

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  • #21
the connections you r talking about these r the new ones that come in different colours
 
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wattsup

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  • #23
If working for the water board, power stations large steel works, mines and quarries etc, anywhere in fact with a clerk of works and a spec. Solid core cannot be crimped. I know because once we had to rip about 1000 metres of 1.5 7core out, because it was solid core and all connections out in the field were crimp connections. And thinking about other places I've worked never have crimped solid core before.

We didn't know it was solid core until connection time, nor did the gaffer, tried to bluff through..no chance it was spotted quickly. Wholesaler at fault, or so was told to us -;
At the time I wondered why not, ask the clerk of works...he looks at me like mainwaring looks at pike..Because solid core breaks under vibration at weak point on crimp, because of expansion and contraction eventually losens the joint, stranded does not..and your boss should know why...oops
 
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Shakey

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  • #24
reg526.3(iv)says he's right .still needs to be in a joint box
c'mon Wayne, thats not what 526.5 says.......:p

not exactly a bs rated joint box;)
no, Wayne, trunking isnt a BS rated joint box, but the regs doesnt call for a BS rated joint box does it!
 
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wayne

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  • #25
c'mon Wayne, thats not what 526.5 says.......:p



no, Wayne, trunking isnt a BS rated joint box, but the regs doesnt call for a BS rated joint box does it!
526.5 why bring that into it ? ,sorry "an appropriate product standard "aka bs/ ce :D
 
Come on shakey, thought u might have typed a real long post about this, the thing that wattsup has said sounds correct, (great explanation by the way) but is there any where in the regs which says you can only crimp stranded? or is it just good practice/bad practice?

Because solid core breaks under vibration at weak point on crimp, because of expansion and contraction eventually losens the joint, stranded does not

I
 
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montybaber

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #27
To my knowledge theres nothing on paper just what I was always taught... but then I always bootlace ferrule stranded flex connections in FCU's etc and I have never seen any other sparkie doing that either,so I suppose its just each to their own.
 
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wattsup

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #29
As a footnote, mi, if lugs are needed have to be soldered. The big stuff 25mm and beyond is like working with 6 inch nails, arnie would have trouble forming it, and the dimwit manufacturers give you no room for error in their termination enclosures. Sometimes it is next to impossible and a further splitter box is needed

>>so crimping solid cores aint against the regs,<<
I don't think it is, but very bad practice
 
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B

Burnt Fingers

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  • #30
So, and sorry because this is probably off the topic now, if you want to join say a 2.5, can you use spring loaded multiconnectors like Helacon Plus range - in a box, which can then be inaccessible?

However I like crimping, its therapeutic.
 
P

pushrod

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #31
Just read thru this whole thread again - not initially realising how old it was :eek:

If working for the water board, power stations large steel works, mines and quarries etc, anywhere in fact with a clerk of works and a spec. Solid core cannot be crimped. I know because once we had to rip about 1000 metres of 1.5 7core out, because it was solid core and all connections out in the field were crimp connections. And thinking about other places I've worked never have crimped solid core before.

We didn't know it was solid core until connection time, nor did the gaffer, tried to bluff through..no chance it was spotted quickly. Wholesaler at fault, or so was told to us -;
At the time I wondered why not, ask the clerk of works...he looks at me like mainwaring looks at pike..Because solid core breaks under vibration at weak point on crimp, because of expansion and contraction eventually losens the joint, stranded does not..and your boss should know why...oops
It occurred to me that these are good reasons in the environments mentioned , but that in a domestic situation the cable is probably more protected and less likely to be subject to extremes of temp and vibration - maybe??

So, and sorry because this is probably off the topic now, if you want to join say a 2.5, can you use spring loaded multiconnectors like Helacon Plus range - in a box, which can then be inaccessible?

However I like crimping, its therapeutic.
If they are similar style to those Ashley ones then yes, that is what a lot of people on here have said.
 
L

leolec

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  • #32
I go with bootlace ferrules for stranded flex in FCU's - really not sure about crimps on solid conductors
 
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nickblake

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  • #33
As long as the crimp is attatched using the correct tool then there isnt a problem ,correct tool i mean ,a ratchet crimper not a hand crimper , yes it does crush the solid core but so does every termination you do ,how often have you fixed say a light switch and over tightend it and the wires broke ,so crimp insulate job done ,great for mains board upgrades when the wires need extending
 
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Ponty Massive

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  • #34
As long as the crimp is attatched using the correct tool then there isnt a problem ,correct tool i mean ,a ratchet crimper not a hand crimper , yes it does crush the solid core but so does every termination you do ,how often have you fixed say a light switch and over tightend it and the wires broke ,so crimp insulate job done ,great for mains board upgrades when the wires need extending

I agree.....Crimps fitted properly are a life safer sometimes for CU changes. I also heat shrink over the top.
 
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nickblake

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  • #35
Only cable that shouldnt be crimped is cable with aluminium conductors ,as for insulation over the joint i use 8kv rated coloured self amalgamating tape
 
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Knobhead

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  • #36
Only cable that shouldnt be crimped is cable with aluminium conductors ,as for insulation over the joint i use 8kv rated coloured self amalgamating tape

There’s no problem with crimping aluminium conductors if you use the correct tool and an anti-oxidising paste.
 
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Abdul

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #37
ive just crimped a ring mains few days ago. would it pass inspection?
 
Sounds good.
I personally like the sound of using copper crimps on copper cables and then heat shrinking.
The regs clearly state that all mechanical joints should be accessable for inspection and maintenance with a few exceptions one being unless a permanent joint is made with the appropriate compression tool.
Copper crimps would be good because if the crimps are not copper there may be some sort of reaction between two different types of metal at the joint.
I would prefer to run a new cable but then sometimes this is not practical.
I guess you would haveto make sure you did not over stress the crimp because you may damage the cable leading it to snap at a later date especially if it was solid core copper.
 
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martysparky

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #40
crimps in trunking?
I would say it ok if cable can be clipped or fixed to the back of the trunking as any movement from maintenance etc could loosen connections. The regs say without quoting that crimps are acceptable in a plastered wall ( maintenance free ).
 
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nickblake

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #41
i use crimps all the time always check the connection then insulate with self amalgamating tape insulated to 8 k ,well thats what it says on the packet , but always make sure the connection is good , graet for extending cables in cdu's and sockets some time to
 
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sjm

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #42
i use crimps all the time always check the connection then insulate with self amalgamating tape insulated to 8 k ,well thats what it says on the packet , but always make sure the connection is good , graet for extending cables in cdu's and sockets some time to
Yes I also use them a lot. However I was told by NICEIC helpline that if you use amalgamating tape you should crimp then put cable sheath around joint then tape up, or just use heatshrink. I find heatshrink much quicker than tape.
 
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martysparky

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #43
Yes I've done the sheath before tape method. Did it once when I ran out of heat shrink. Good to know NICE advise the same.
 

Jimmy Boy

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Arms
As a matter of interest what does everyone do when Mr DIY man sticks his drill through a bit of T&E in the middle of his lounge wall ? Crimp/bury/forget or stick a gopping box on the wall ?
 
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Jason Tritton

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  • #48
hi, thanks but i am afraid your link doesnt go anywhere, so i have no idea what you were pointing too :(
 
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MarkieSparkie

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  • #49
I thought I’d just drop the following hand grenade into the debate and see who's left standing:
526.5 Every termination and joint in a live conductor or PEN conductor shall be made within one of the following or a combination thereof:
i) A suitable accessory complying with the appropriate product standard.
ii) An equipment enclosure complying with the appropriate product standard.
iii) An enclosure partially formed or completed with building material which is non-combustible when tested to BS476-4

Note specifically 526.5 (iii) an enclosure can be PARTIALLY formed OR COMPLETED with non-combustible building material tested to BS 476-4.
The enclosure cannot therefore be made totally from building material. So a crimped termination, whether covered with supplementary insulation (e.g. heat-shrink sleeve or self-amalgamating tape) or not and buried directly in the wall with building material (e.g. plaster) does not comply with 526.5 (iii).
Any type of tape or sleeving, is defined as supplementary insulation not an enclosure, even if it completely covers the termination. Any cable conductors covered with supplementary insulation, to effectively recreate the original double insulation outer sheath of the original cable, need to be at least equivalent to that of the original cable product standard to comply with 133.1. The cable product standards do not specify insulation withstand capability, as jointing is prohibited. However, 412.2.4.1, Note 1, tells us “… the insulation cable system must be at least equivalent to requirements set out in BS EN 61140 for reinforced insulation.” and would require the impulse dielectric strength testing detailed in the standard to certify this.
 
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Spazz

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #50
So what is the best method of extending cables?

I got a job coming up next weekend (CU change and relocation of CU by 1 meter)

Cables are to short - I was thinking solder them and heat shrink the solder connection after with relevant color.

Or is there a better way?

The cables Ideally will be berried into the wall or ceiling and come out 1M down wall where the CU is going


Not meaning to steal the post!
 
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MarkieSparkie

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #51
I use the glue lined heat shrink crimps and enclose the termination in a Chocbox (without the terminal strip), the cable clamps prevent strain on the enclosed terminations. This can be buried in a wall, in a safe zone, if required and complies with 526.5.
 
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Spazz

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  • #52
Where do you get yours from - I found some on Maplin (Red and Blue) 10 for £3.50 + P&P
 
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SPARTYKUS

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #53
Nicholas Owen, that sounds very expensive for crimps.


Cpc (combined precision components) sell them in bags of a hundred for not much. And they do the job,
 
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Spazz

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #54
I dont bet you have the Part number to hand do you?

As I cant find them on CPC
 

DNS1

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Arms
Esteemed
No offence mr Owen, but I'm a little confused as to how you're qualified to do a CU change, but don't know where to buy crimps... Are you new to the game?
 
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Spazz

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #59
I am new to the game - I know where to buy them from, but the problem is I dont know what the correct names are:

I have several companies I use, some cheaper than others, so when I type crimps into Gil-Lec, CPC, QVS, CEF, ETC the ones I want dont come up

So I turn to google to see if anyother company sells them - the only company that came up was Maplin - so what do you think I should think
 
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Guest111

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #60
As a footnote, mi, if lugs are needed have to be soldered. The big stuff 25mm and beyond is like working with 6 inch nails, arnie would have trouble forming it, and the dimwit manufacturers give you no room for error in their termination enclosures. Sometimes it is next to impossible and a further splitter box is needed

>>so crimping solid cores aint against the regs,<<
I don't think it is, but very bad practice
totally agree,doing a load at the minute and they range from 50 to 150 mm absolute murder to work with.
 
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SPARTYKUS

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #61
No offence mr Owen, but I'm a little confused as to how you're qualified to do a CU change, but don't know where to buy crimps... Are you new to the game?

Blimey thats a big jump DNS1. Just read a question about crimps personally.
 

DNS1

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Arms
Esteemed
Maybe I did jump to conclusions.

If I was after crimps I'd just grab the Screwfix/Toolstation catalogue and whip down to the local branch, but to be fair to Nicholas Owen, his profile says he's in Wales, where those places are apparently very few and far between!

As someone else has said, CPC is would be the best bet. Seeing as they charge a bit for delivery, a bulk order would probably be a good idea, maybe one of the trade packs with a few hundred of each type/size.
 
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Spazz

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #63
DNS1

Its Saturday and my nearest Screwfix and Toolstation is over 50 miles away!

I had a look, but when you search for crimps you have a few different ones come up and none of them have pictures.

All I asked is where he got his from as all I had up on Google was Maplin. Of course I looked on my usual sites including CPC but not knowing what to search for you get some wired results.

Anyway Im doing an order in the next few days with CPC so I will get them then
 

Marvo

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Mentor
Arms
Esteemed
Try google 'cable ferrules' instead of crimps, you should get more accurate results.

We pay the equivalent of about 3 quid for a pack of 100 x 2.5mm uninsulated.
 
Or you could get some Wago's ..... quick, easy............ if your going to crimp make sure you use a good tool and good quality crimp
 
S

Spazz

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #66
Do you mean these sjhall?



Only problem I see with these is that they are not maintenance free are they and therefore they will need to be inspected wont they?
Correct me if I am wrong please
 
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Edward Amsden

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #67
I cant quote this as I haven't looked, (sure it is in there) however I believe that 7671 says that if a connection has a fixing (i.e. choc block) it must be accessible so that rules that out.. Next is a crimp connection (suitably protected) would do this job... Just make sure that the crimps are copper (same as conductor) and you test the installation after.
 
Hi Mate, yes they are the ones, I thought you wanted to extend inside the Fuse board ..... I think Wago's are maintenance free in the right enclosure from what iv read on here ...... need to double check though.

Ste
 
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Spazz

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #69
These heat shrink butt splices are they suitable for 6mm shower cable?

I have looked at a few of them and they come up with 16A - fine for 2.5 T&E and 1.5 T&E

Of course you would get the correct size - i.e. 6mm one
 
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Engineer54

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #70
To be honest, i've never noticed a current rating attached to crimp terminals. I would have thought that the rating would reflect the largest size of the cable, they have been manufactured to accommodate.

The heatshrink is 90c as, as far as i know, all heatshrink products are based on XLPE plastics, so far more suitable than standard 70c insulated crimp terminations. Also available, is low temp solder heatshrink butt connectors. ...There is also a combined crimp and solder variety of heatshrink terminations, that can combine the properties of both crimping and soldered jointing.
 

telectrix

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Mentor
Arms
Esteemed
These heat shrink butt splices are they suitable for 6mm shower cable?

I have looked at a few of them and they come up with 16A - fine for 2.5 T&E and 1.5 T&E

Of course you would get the correct size - i.e. 6mm one
the yellow 6mm crimps are rated around 40A. if buying from cpc, make your order up to £50 ( ex. VAT) and it's then free delivery.
 
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Spazz

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #73
Thanks

I have made an order already costing over £100 with them so stuck them on the back of it - 4 different sizes and the crimping tool - they are not cheap!
 
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Snapester

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #74
Interesting reading through this so many against crimps? I crimp cables and have never really thought it was a bad practice or frowned upon? I usually crimp cables and then use self amalgamating tape to secure and protect the joint?
Is this deemed bad practice?
 
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Adam W

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #77
A crimp is never going to be as 'good' as a continuous length of cable, however in some situations it's the only option.
 

darkwood

Mod
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Arms
Esteemed
Crimps are bought without instructions but if you were to seek tech advice they would normally say its not for solid drawn cable, if you use a decent crimping tool it shapes the crimp so no metal fatigue is put on the crimp but for it to do its job the cable must also adapt to the crimping shape... this cant happen with solid core so NO! unless the crimp and also the crimping tool has been designed to do the job then stranded or fine stranded only.
 
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Knobhead

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #79
This has always been a concern to me. No way will a standard ratchet crimping tool will form the crimp around a solid core. They are designed for stranded cores.
Look at the design of a crimping tool for large 4 sector solidal conductors, they form the crimp around the core.
 
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Personally, I won't use crimps on solid core after seeing a lot of failures over the years (yes, properly done with a ratchet tool). The crimp simply doesn't form properly the way it does on stranded. IF you are going to use a crimp then go for "Ampliversal". They are the best I have found and have a serrated lining, tho not cheap.
 
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Knobhead

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #81
I use Ampliversal crimps and an Ampliversal crimper. I would not use them on solid cores.
 
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Engineer54

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #82
Use a good ratchet crimper with good crimps on solid cores and you will have a sound permanent connection. The trick is to have a ratchet crimper that deforms the solid core within the crimp.
 
Note 2 on section 526.2 of BS7671 (aka 17th edition the wiring regs), which states: "Terminals without the marking R (only rigid conductor), F (only flexible conductor), S or Sol (only solid conductor) are suitable for the connection of all types of conductors
 

darkwood

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Mentor
Arms
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Note 2 on section 526.2 of BS7671 (aka 17th edition the wiring regs), which states: "Terminals without the marking R (only rigid conductor), F (only flexible conductor), S or Sol (only solid conductor) are suitable for the connection of all types of conductors
Welcome to th forum sizzler... to correct you; you need to read your regs quote again.its in reference to soldered connection, im confused to where your post is leading as the thread was discussing straight crimping.
 
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Knobhead

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  • #87
Frankenstein along with this thread still lives. 2008 the thread started, why couldn’t it be left to rot?
 
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Adam W

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  • #90
Just keep firing up that re-animator and jump-starting this practically medieval thread....

Depending on the situation I'd use through crimps and heat-shrink as a 'get out of jail free card' as an absolute last resort, in preference to connector block.
It's not something I'd say is 'fine' though, just 'barely acceptable', and not in every situation.
 
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