FIRE RATED DOWNLIGHTS AND PLASTIC CCU - WHAT SIDE OF THE FENCE?

[westward10]

Fire protection in listed buildings is of high priority and although the existing ceilings if original or even sympathetically replaced may offer limited protection there may well be retrofitted fire protection you cannot see above them. It is important to know if these light fittings are compromising the fire protection of this building.

 

[DPG]

Im not trying to force anything, what would you code the downlights as?

I wouldn't, assuming they are fitted correctly.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

As others have pointed out, non fire rated downlights are okay in some situations, but not in others. If a downlight is installed in a ceiling that is a fire barrier between 2 fire compartments, then it should be appropriately fire rated.

It's not always obvious if a ceiling is a fire barrier, but there may be clues, eg. ceiling is double plasterboarded, is there a fire door somewhere between the downstairs and upstairs rooms separated by the ceiling, different dwellings and so on.

There is a little bit of info in the Electrician's Guide To The Building Regs (10.2.3, and appendix D in the 17th edition, I need to update). Also, there is an excellent youtube vid by John Ward that you will find very useful:

 

[telectrix]

Thank you, how would you code the non fire rated downlights?

no code unless there's problems like thermal damage, exposed inner insulation, etc.

 

[NICKYNUNN]

As others have pointed out, non fire rated downlights are okay in some situations, but not in others. If a downlight is installed in a ceiling that is a fire barrier between 2 fire compartments, then it should be appropriately fire rated.

It's not always obvious if a ceiling is a fire barrier, but there may be clues, eg. ceiling is double plasterboarded, is there a fire door somewhere between the downstairs and upstairs rooms separated by the ceiling, different dwellings and so on.

There is a little bit of info in the Electrician's Guide To The Building Regs (10.2.3, and appendix D in the 17th edition, I need to update). Also, there is an excellent youtube vid by John Ward that you will find very useful:

Thanks for that

 

[brianmoooore]

As others have said, C3 for the plastic CU and no code for the downlighters, but I would make a strong recommendation in the notes that they are changed for fire rated versions. I've come across the odd mouse's nest built over a nice warm downlight, featuring pieces of nice dry paper.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

It's also worth mentioning that not all fire rated downlights are enclosed, can-type ones. Integral Evofire for example are fire rated, but open backed:

Integral LED Evofire Fire Rated Downlight 85mm

An attractive and aesthetic fit whenever you need ceiling lighting that lasts. With the Evofire from Integral LED, the 1mm ‘blend-in’ bezel is up to 10 times thinner than other standard IP65 downlights – guaranteeing a flush fit against the ceiling.This fire-rated downlight features a can-less...

www.toolstation.com

 

[loz2754]

There seems to be a bit of confusion as to the purpose of installing fire rated downlights.

Some seem to have got hold of the idea that a fire rated downlight is needed to prevent a fire starting within or around a downlight. This is not the case.

The purpose of a fire rated downlight is solely to maintain the integrity of the fire barrier that has been penetrated by the insertion of the said light fitting, in order to prevent the spread of fire between the fire compartment below the ceiling, to another fire compartment above the ceiling.

In a normal domestic property, there is only one fire compartment, ie the whole building, therefore no fire rated downlights will be necessary.

The situation is different in special cases, for instance, as @westward10 mentioned, if it's a listed building, or if the building is an HMO.

Having said all of that, I personally always fit fire rated downlights, because it makes sense to do so. But there is no regulation, electrical or building, that can be cited in order to enforce them in most domestic properties.

 

[NICKYNUNN]

There seems to be a bit of confusion as to the purpose of installing fire rated downlights.

Some seem to have got hold of the idea that a fire rated downlight is needed to prevent a fire starting within or around a downlight. This is not the case.

The purpose of a fire rated downlight is solely to maintain the integrity of the fire barrier that has been penetrated by the insertion of the said light fitting, in order to prevent the spread of fire between the fire compartment below the ceiling, to another fire compartment above the ceiling.

In a normal domestic property, there is only one fire compartment, ie the whole building, therefore no fire rated downlights will be necessary.

The situation is different in special cases, for instance, as @westward10 mentioned, if it's a listed building, or if the building is an HMO.

Having said all of that, I personally always fit fire rated downlights, because it makes sense to do so. But there is no regulation, electrical or building, that can be cited in order to enforce them in most domestic properties.

Thanks, good to get confirmation that there is no regulation that I may be disobeying. When I started reading into it , the literature was more about the fire integrity of the floor/ceiling with little mention of the lights themselves being burning hot little things sat in among all the tinder crap you can often find under floor boards.
The codebreaker book must responsible for alot of non fire rated downlights being ripped out, certainly when Ive worked helping out on EICRs this has been the case.

 

[loz2754]

Just noticed NAPIT code breakers have it as a C2.
They say "no fire hoods fitted on open back downlights with room above" C2
C3 if there is no room above
??????

1. This does not directly reference whether or not the lights themselves are fire rated. (As has been mentioned by @Pretty Mouth , some open back downlights are fire rated)

2. The bit about "the room above" only applies if the room above constitutes a separate fire compartment, which the book fails to point out.

The problem with the Codebreakers book is that it is only a compilation of opinions, with no real explanations given, and mostly vague references to regulations. It can be useful, but like any such opinions, needs to be taken as advice only, and not rigid rules.

(And yes, I do own a copy and have read it through from cover to cover, making notes of my disagreements and actual errors found)

 

[NICKYNUNN]

1. This does not directly reference whether or not the lights themselves are fire rated. (As has been mentioned by @Pretty Mouth , some open back downlights are fire rated)

2. The bit about "the room above" only applies if the room above constitutes a separate fire compartment, which the book fails to point out.

The problem with the Codebreakers book is that it is only a compilation of opinions, with no real explanations given, and mostly vague references to regulations. It can be useful, but like any such opinions, needs to be taken as advice only, and not rigid rules.

(And yes, I do own a copy and have read it through from cover to cover, making notes of my disagreements and actual errors found)

Thanks ?

 

[loz2754]

Thanks ?

Your welcome. Hope it helps.

The more these questions are asked, the more opportunity there is to shed more "light" on the answers, such answers (usually) being only available through both thorough research, and the experience of the members of this forum.

Edit: and of course John Ward! (And others on YouTube)

 

[NICKYNUNN]

Your welcome. Hope it helps.

The more these questions are asked, the more opportunity there is to shed more "light" on the answers, such answers (usually) being only available through both thorough research, and the experience of the members of this forum.

Edit: and of course John Ward! (And others on YouTube)

Definitely ?

 

[brianmoooore]

The purpose of a fire rated downlight is solely to maintain the integrity of the fire barrier that has been penetrated by the insertion of the said light fitting,l

This is why it doesn't get a code, but I use my judgement as an engineer concerning the possibility of flammable materials collecting on the upper side, and give a strong recommendation for them to be replaced with can types in the notes accompanying an EICR.

 

[NICKYNUNN]

This is why it doesn't get a code, but I use my judgement as an engineer concerning the possibility of flammable materials collecting on the upper side, and give a strong recommendation for them to be replaced with can types in the notes accompanying an EICR.

Thank you ???

 

[UNG]

9 out of 10 sparks Ive spoken to say C2 for non fire rated downlights and C3 for plastic board.
I'm pleased I asked on here, I appreciate all the advice.

Are the 9 just blindly following the advice books or are they using their knowledge and experience or lack of it to come to the decisions they have made
I might be wrong but in some of your posts you seem to be fixed on what code because it needs a code, or is their a need to code something to satisfy yourself or your client that your ECIR is credible
None of the advice books can clearly define beyond doubt each and every circumstance perfectly and obviously for that reason there are some elements that need local on the ground input to justify the coding that the books offer while BS7671 is the primary reading this has to be read in conjunction with the building regs and any other documents that affect the use or construction of the property

As has been demonstrated in this thread the decision on some coding needs a little bit more than just electrical knowledge to make the coding decision, if the plastic CU is in a firelined cupboard would it necessarily need a code