How to gain Heavy Industrial and PLC experience

[Timbits]

Hi all,


I have a couple of years post apprenticeship experience mostly in large commercial and medium industrial install but im now looking at how to get into some proper Industrial stuff including gaining PLC/controls experience. Have been trawling many different recruitment agencies and websites but it seems to be the fairly standard 'must have prior experience'. Has anyone done a similar thing or do you have to start from Apprenticeship level in this sort of work? Or if anyone needs a hand in the West Midlands/Warwickshire area I would be more than willing to assist and can send CV/qualifications/contact details if interested.



Many thanks in advance for any help, Steve

 

[johnboy6083]

Im not experienced with PLC's (apart from installing the cabling to them, and panel mods ect), but i got my experience with controls ect from working for the right companies, and asking to get involved.

Im nowhere as involved as say Tony, Darkwood, Silver Foxx ect are, but i understand the basics, i can fault find them and i can install them.

Im now doing a HNC in Electrical Engineering in order to be able to get more involved, and gain more understanding.
Experience is the best way of getting these jobs, but also being keen is another way. Showing an interest is a good thingh for an employer to see.
Good luck mate.

As for heavy industrial jobs, the best way for you to gain experience is to get on an agency who deal with this type of work. Its not easy to get on these jobs, as they pay well, and as soon as people know about them they are massivley over-subscribed.

 

[Knobhead]

I started down the PLC road when the company I worked for decided thats the way for them. We just got dragged along, you either sank of swam.
As John has said, to get in to heavy engineering the agencies seem to be the way.

 

[Timbits]

Johnboy, what format is your HNC, are you doing evenings or Open University? Have been looking at this myself. Also, how are you finding it with regards to fitting it in around work/life and how difficult is the theory?

Thanks again guys really appreciate the help,keep hassling the agencies and carpet bombing the CV it is then!

 

[vaughant]

Shame you can't relocate to Aberdeen,I can get you in my place straight away and they would get you involved with plc's/control straightaway.Best thing is to learn diagrams,learn how they operate as industry depends on it,it's how you find your way around stuff like this

You need to remember a plc is purely a computer for us electricians to understand with pretty pictures of switches instead of '0's and '1's as you find in binary code (although STL in Siemens is basically that) but again it's just generally a way of switching something on or off at its very basic form.Yes this is done usually in a pretty spectacular way with data words,timers,variable tables,AND,OR,NOT gates but again if you can follow electrical drawings and basic principles then you can grasp the basics easily.I'm assuming your young so this is the field to get into,the more technical side of it.The problem you may face is that often you learn this via your apprenticeship so it maybe hard to get out of the blocks a bit to sort pick up on it but it's worth a try.Industrial control has done me well over the years.

 

[Knobhead]

Just to give you an idea of ladder layout.

View attachment 14979

 

[vaughant]

What plc make is that tony?Mitsubishi?Looks a very neat system.

 

[Knobhead]

Telemecanique PL7 Looks even better when your on line :tounge_smile:
I had to learn it after a management cock up, I wanted to us Mitzubishi. They insisted I used a Modicon PLC "everyone understands Modsoft". The new PLC arived and "no one" understood PL7. When the place shut down I was still the only one to understand it.

Used in their STX and in new Modicon's

 

[johnboy6083]

Johnboy, what format is your HNC, are you doing evenings or Open University? Have been looking at this myself. Also, how are you finding it with regards to fitting it in around work/life and how difficult is the theory?

Thanks again guys really appreciate the help,keep hassling the agencies and carpet bombing the CV it is then!

Im doing one day per week. Its costing me a fortune in lost wages (1/5 of my income), especually as ive not long split up with my GF of 7 years.
I really thought i would struggle but so far im doing fine. Calculus isnt as hard as people make out, but there again we have a very good course, and a good tutor.
Im looking forward to finishing it, and maybe go onto foundation degree/HND and then maybe a degree.

 

[Timbits]

Thanks all for the great response, definitely given me some food for thought. Applying for everything and everything at the moment but understandably hard to gain an Industrial start with only one recent relevant (CompEx) job, still sticking with it mind!

Tried to message you Vaughant regarding your work in Aberdeen, as I am in the position of being able to relocate pretty much anywhere and have family in Arboath, however I cant private message until I have reached 15 posts, is there any way of you messaging me? If not will post my e-mail address.


Thanks again for the help, Steve

 

[grantr37]

quite a big post coming up in sections, hope this helps a little bit, any questions please ask



cheers

grantr37

 

[grantr37]

Just to give you an idea of ladder layout.

View attachment 14979

years ago they used to teach in college using ladder diagrams and everything was coded in low level OP code(machine code), hand coded with a great deal more thinking about timers+WDT's, interrupts, jumps, no ops,registers, memory locations, pointers etc.....now everything gets programmed using SDK's (Software Development Kits- AKA compilers) and high level language, usually C, so that a lot of the issues with different PLC chips get ironed out by the use of manufacturer designed programming software tools instead of relying on in depth learning for each new device....the new PLC's and microcontrollers all have inbuilt memory and timers, which the older ones had on a separate card....

In a lot of Colleges they teach this as part of the microelectronics part of the course, and often they never build anything to experiment with the programs but instead run them on a PC based simulator before running on a specially bought in board with Led's to indicate activity/switching and a keypad/LCD for input and information display.....with the students gathering round and taking turns at loading up and demonstrating programs running...usually from a compact flash card or USB memory stick these days....


A lot of Colleges refer to the devices when they teach about them by calling them Microcontrollers and some refer to them as PIC's/PIC Chips (peripheral interface controllers) depending on which manufacturers devices they use there for tinkering about with.....
At University they tend to teach the same but usually add some form of PLC portion as a requirement in projects, referring to them as microcontrollers, if you speak about a PLC they will tell you that this refers to a whole circuit board incorporating a Microcontroller and used in industrial control, then go on about the other interface chips comprising a part of the whole board....



the Integrated circuit chips available these days all have quite a bit of in built memory, and can interface to external memory to load programs stored on them, they can skip to new portions of software from interrupts in the main program that are initiated under certain circumstances and load up/run them from a memory chip on a PCB, a compact flash, a USB memory device or even use handshaking via serial USB interface from a PC/Laptop...
The microcontrollers/PLC's can also check for an externally loaded program by checking ports for communications before loading software stored locally (internally) ie they can check for software updates or to see if an interface cable is connected to the main board, if not available the pre-loaded software/firmware runs instead...



many New models of microcontroller/PLC IC's (Integrated circuits) have inbuilt Digital signal processing (DSP's) that allow for DA/AD conversion, so that analogue signals can be input and digitised then checked/compared to tables of values, then the chip can carry out tasks based on the inputs, and analogue outputs can be produced, such as for example analogue waveforms for passing via an amplifier to a drive unit etc...

 

[grantr37]

PLC= Programmable Logic Controller
PIC= Peripheral Interface Controller
UC=Microchip (with a number this is used to label chip ID's on schematics)
ROM=Read Only Memory
RAM=Random Access Memory
EEPROM=Electronically Erasable Programmable Read Only Memory (can be re-written over and over but is non-volatile)
RAMDAC= Random Access Memory Digital to Analogue Converter
D/A= Digital to Analogue Converter.
A/D= Analogue to Digital Converter.
DSP=Digital signal Processor
N/O= Normally open
N/C= Normally closed.
Bootstrap= small package of software run at first start up of a device in order to load other software and settings.
BIOS= Basic Input Output System
FLASH RAM= High speed Strobeable rewriteable memory.
Strobe= writing and re writing of memory locations, usually referred to when high speed temporary use of memory occurs when variables (internal values stored such as readings from sensors) change regularly.
Clock (CLK)= INTERNAL CLOCK, sometimes referred to if there is an external clock (timebase) as well
WDT= Watchdog timer, this is the internal timer that the software uses to time operations/tasks.
K=count (eg K1000 = 1 second )
JMP=Jump
NOP=No Op (no operation)
BIST= Built in Self Test


SSROM= Single Shot ROM (once only, make a mistake loading software and its the bin) only used now in military equipment and manufactured to order, not for sale...
EPROM=the same as SSROM (Electronically Programmable Read Only Memory) this is single use as well, very rare now...
UV EPROM= Ultraviolet Erasable Programmable Read Only memory, very rare now, used to be the standard before EEPROM was first invented, then it was phased out after about 2001 when re-usable memory bacame very cheap(this could be erased by putting it in a UV light box the same as those used for fixing ink on Printed Circuit Boards before etching) you may come accross this in contol boards on older Lifts/Elevators and in Fire Alarm Panels, BEWARE, don't peel off the sticker as you will probably wipe the program in daylight(corrupt it) and will have a hard time getting a replacement modern one written up with the correct software at short notice...

FPGA= Field Programmable Gate Array

UVEEPROM erasing worked by ionising the small amount of gas sealed in the optical chamber (little window) which made the whole platter conductive and wiped the static charge off of the memory surface, resulting in all the cells/locations being wiped off and becoming 0's instead of a series of appropriate 1's and 0's that were loaded on when written...

EEPROM can be re-written over and over pretty much indefinately and is what is inside all modern controller IC's, this is wiped by strobing all memory locations to 0 or (0FFFFX) and then loading in new values...


Many years ago (from early 1970's to about 1988) a lot of programs were etched into the IC strata (the semiconductor structure) at the factory by using optical etching, this was permanent, and interestingly this type of memory is solidly permanent and can not be wiped by an electromagnetic pulse as it is "burned in"....there is a lot of effort involved to do this though...

The old system of using a program stored on a separate chip soldered or socketted onto the board is pretty much non-existent these days (an example being the old UV EPROM) and programs are stored and run on one chip, with separate external memory being referred to (referenced/poled) by the device for settings and additional software/programs/firmware...


SCADA= Supervisory Control And Data Acquisition (this gets referred to a lot these days) and is basically a combination of sensors, relays, motor drivers and PLC's with an interface Board all connected to a computer , whether it be a Linux terminal, a Desktop PC or a Server in a remote location... this provides real time information and readings as well as control by the software and the User via the computer...mostly over a network..an example being in a factory etc...



ASIC= Application Specific Integrated Circuit, this is a specialist custom made microchip incorporating control, digital and analogue signal processing and other items such as amplification stages and high frequency Electronics, an example being an IC designed for a Mobile phone with memory for software which runs a screen driver, processes the signals from the microphone and out to the earpiece amplifier, poles the keypad or samples the touchscreen interface chip, etc....or an MP3 player operating from one chip with processing and audio output etc...

Firmware= operating software built into an Electronic device or Appliance/white goods to operate them, for example your printer has internal software which is classed as firmware, this is the name for pre-installed software required for normal operation of equipment...when talking about for an example a Fire Alarm System, Firmware or a Firmware Update may be mentioned (firmware basically translates as Fixed Software)








the common Programming Language used now is C/C++


There are many many Prototyping (Experimental) programming boards about these days with the software development kit (programming package) bundled and they can be bought from Maplins and Ebay, the more professional/Industrial ones can be bought from RS Electronics…

 

[grantr37]

NON-Volatile memory is set until it gets re-written (or damaged/corrupted) almost all modern memory is Non-Volatile..

Volatile memory requires a memory holding power source to hold the memory locations that are on/1 at High, this can be a permanent power supply, a small memory retention capacitor (only holds for a matter of hours or sometimes days) or a battery that can last for years...

 

[Knobhead]

I worked on the predecessors of PLC’s, first a Feranti Argus 1000 and then hard wired logic, Solicon, Norbit and Logicon 1 & 2. Compared to hard wired logic, PLC’s are slow.

 

[Bobster]

We had old hartmann and braun hard wired logic, some of it still in use.

 

[Knobhead]

Even new PLC controlled kilns would use Logicon 1 for the Double Block and Proove.

The foundry had one plant with H&B.

 

[Bobster]

The foundry had one plant with H&B.

Did that also have loads of jumpered wires hanging out of which where and everywere? Lol

 

[grantr37]

Any questions about PLC's Timbits just ask

 

[Guest123]

I dont know how the well versed would view this course but wanting to have something to back up knowledge gained through experienece, I recently took this course to gain a bit of background on PLC's.

Scantime Online Course - Introduction to PLCs


I found it very informative TBH and will consider the other courses in the future.

 

[grantr37]

I dont know how the well versed would view this course but wanting to have something to back up knowledge gained through experienece, I recently took this course to gain a bit of background on PLC's.

Scantime Online Course - Introduction to PLCs




I found it very informative TBH and will consider the other courses in the future.

what kind of certificate printout did you get from them? they have a siemens one there, could be used to prove siemens experience for the pesky agencies that don't seem to want to accept a 7 year old college certificate.....

 

[vaughant]

No S5 would be my only issue with the course advertised but for £40 you can't go wring,S5 is like an old computer system really and a pig to get connected to if you haven't used it much before but it's still a very very common system and you'll see it in a lot of pre 1998 machinery,I quite like it but it's a bit glitchy and slow and you do need to have a clue about flags,timers,set/reset flags and general logic control but it's not impossible to learn.
S7 is a superb system that's extremely popular right now,has been for many years and not due to be phased out for a long time.
Hardware faults are very rare on Siemens,the worst you ever get is a program stop or a comms fault,neither of which take much to figure out.
S7 is great to fault find on,easy to get online and quick to use,only drawbacks are it can be a bit long winded to get to the origin of the fault,especially if it's been converted over from S5 which is common,then you end up with sections in STL only which is a pain to read but if it's S7 from the start it's great.
Allen Bradley is very easy to read and change,but again an ar5e to get online with unless its a dedicated laptop pre set up.
LOGO is very basic but fine and rs logix is a nice easy way of viewing a particular system.
grant37r put some interesting info up there although I doubt the average industrial spark would get too involved with pcb and EEPROM much but still important to know these things.
90% of industrial is using the monitor as a fault finding tool which I love!!!

 

[Knobhead]

For fault finding give me Modsoft anyday. The search and trace is so quick to use.

 

[vaughant]

For fault finding give me Modsoft anyday. The search and trace is so quick to use.

Rs logix is like that,you just type in say "conveyor 4" and it gives you every occurrence of conveyor 4 within the program.
Siemens S7 is a touch more tricky ie you need an input/output number or m code etc but you can search that in any fc (function call) of the program.
S5 is more tricky as you need to sometimes be in a different port or CPU of the base unit as it won't communicate otherwise,can throw a novice off.
I suppose it's what your used to really,as long as you understand how it works your in with 1/2 a chance.

 

[vaughant]

Typical s5 drawing

Will put some S7 up tommorow.

 

[Knobhead]

I've been trying to get a screen shot of Modsoft with no joy. You've given me an idea, go back to basics, print and then scan.
I always try to over complicate the simple.

View attachment 15148

 

[Knobhead]

years ago they used to teach in college using ladder diagrams and everything was coded in low level OP code(machine code), hand coded with a great deal more thinking about timers+WDT's, interrupts, jumps, no ops,registers, memory locations, pointers etc.....now everything gets programmed using SDK's (Software Development Kits- AKA compilers) and high level language, usually C, so that a lot of the issues with different PLC chips get ironed out by the use of manufacturer designed programming software tools instead of relying on in depth learning for each new device....the new PLC's and microcontrollers all have inbuilt memory and timers, which the older ones had on a separate card....

I think you should read The History of the PLC by Dick Morley

Good reading for anyone.

 

[vaughant]

Some S7 for ya!!!

ladder

Fbd

 

[grantr37]

have you read the old book "the mighty micro" by christopher evans (1979) its quite interesting what he thought would happen back then, as a lot of it did.... worth a look for interest purposes.....will be on ebay and amazon...

 

[grantr37]

back when processors were called "Transputers"

 

[Robotstar5]

Some S7 for ya!!!

ladder

Fbd

You missed STL!

 

[vaughant]

You missed STL!

Delibrately, lets not scare the lad off just yet!!!!

I`m no fan but sometimes it`s the only way to view things, I can get through it but it takes me a lot longer.

 

[Robotstar5]

We had a couple of machines installed a few years ago built by a Dutch company, they have a custom spreadsheet type program running inside S7, after half an hour my brain went into meltdown trying to understand it!.

 

[i=p/u]

back to basics and sign up on engineering for beginners...

 

[mheyes]

You need to understand hardware before software This is a small panel for a conveyor system It has ethernet comms that are quite complex. Start with the basics and work up but remember YOU CANT BE GREAT AT EVERYTHING

 

[sbrown2]

I think a lot of people have said it in this thread and certainly in others. Its about grasping the basics. You must have these basics by the sounds of it. What is your apprenticeship title? What are your qualifications? If they are electrical, allied with the installation experience you have, you sound like you are ready to take the next step. If you are younger experience is important but many companies will take your age into account.
My company has opened a site in Aston with an older Maintenance Manager and he has four/five technicians between 24 and 33. The younger the better he says - I hope that sounds ok!!!!!!!

 

[vaughant]

View attachment 15339You need to understand hardware before software This is a small panel for a conveyor system It has ethernet comms that are quite complex. Start with the basics and work up but remember YOU CANT BE GREAT AT EVERYTHING

Good stuff.
In ford we used a lot of Allen Bradley kit with the comms system and a regular fault was "comms error 7" which meant stopping then restarting the plc!!!
i never really knew what it meant as it was so easy to reset but after a few years of blindly resetting it we started to work out what was going on.
The cause was these Siemens units we used for driving motors (basically a glorified forward/reverse contactor in a smart case) had copper links behind for the various power and control circuits.
With time,the vibration of where they were mounted made them work a touch loose,hence losing the comms link and causing the fault,sometimes for literally 1/2 a second but that was enough.
I started mounting them then on rubber backings to take some of the vibration out and it greatly improved it.
Clever system though,as of course an automation line can be sometimes miles long,but at least then from any workstation you could see the fault on the hmi and go straight to it.
Certainly worth learning as above,get the hardware right first.

 

[Knobhead]

If you enter in to an established company that is already using PLC’s or what ever, I’m sorry but you’re in at the deep end. Most companies will put you with an experienced guy for a while. If he’s any good he will take a back seat as soon as possible, just giving you hints when you’re going of course. The last one I was with took it to the extreme, he stayed in the mess room drinking tea while I was doing the blue fly impression.
One of the most important things is to learn the process. As with any process the operator can be you’re best friend or sworn enemy. Those that will give the right information and those that want to sit on their arse while you flounder around.
To go in to industry now, PLC’s are a fact of life, how far you go with them is between you and the company. Some will have Fred in the office that does all mods, other like the last one I worked for will give you more than enough rope to hang yourself.

 

[Timbits]

Alright lads,

Havnt been on in a while but have got stuck into a bit more of a proper job. Just got my first start as a rope access electrician at a coal power station. Its not 100% electrical and not the PLC stuff I was hoping for, however money is good and its long term so couldnt say no. Think the brain frying mentioned above will have to be some light reading just for now! But will definitely be reading up on and hopefully starting to get a grasp on the basics.


Cheers once again to all

 

[vaughant]

If you enter in to an established company that is already using PLC’s or what ever, I’m sorry but you’re in at the deep end. Most companies will put you with an experienced guy for a while. If he’s any good he will take a back seat as soon as possible, just giving you hints when you’re going of course. The last one I was with took it to the extreme, he stayed in the mess room drinking tea while I was doing the blue fly impression.
One of the most important things is to learn the process. As with any process the operator can be you’re best friend or sworn enemy. Those that will give the right information and those that want to sit on their arse while you flounder around.
To go in to industry now, PLC’s are a fact of life, how far you go with them is between you and the company. Some will have Fred in the office that does all mods, other like the last one I worked for will give you more than enough rope to hang yourself.

.
Quite possibly one of the truest statements ever written on this forum,no surprise it's from you tony.
In my previous job in ford I'd be amazed if I used the plc once a year,we had a department for that,yet in this job I reckon it's out once every few days,it's gone now that I just remember the s5 login procedure off by heart which is usually a bit of a pig to do!!!!
and timbits,great news kid!!!!
a job is a job mate,well done.

 

[Knobhead]

While at the foundry my phone would ring at least once a week. “Where do I find,,,,, in the program”. I could still talk someone through Modsoft log on followed by search F5, search next F5/F6, trace F5/F3, change register value Clrl/Enter.
The fact I was out in a club completely off my face didn’t matter. Funny next morning though, I couldn’t remember a thing about it.

I don’t think you ever do forget it.

 

[Robotstar5]

While at the foundry my phone would ring at least once a week. “Where do I find,,,,, in the program”. I could still talk someone through Modsoft log on followed by search F5, search next F5/F6, trace F5/F3, change register value Clrl/Enter.
The fact I was out in a club completely off my face didn’t matter. Funny next morning though, I couldn’t remember a thing about it.

I don’t think you ever do forget it.

That brings back memories, I must have worked on Modicon PLC's for 15+ years at Rover & Land Rover, used to know all the hotkey shortcuts.

 

[Knobhead]

I must be a sado, I've still got the programs on my PC

Ctrl Alt M as hot keys for it. :sad_smile:

 

[Sperky]

Sorry for hi-jacking but I find myself in a similar situation. Have been using AB/Mitsy/Omron PLC's for the past 2 years. My experience with them only really goes as far as wiring and setting up/troubleshooting physical comms. Havent touched the programming side of these things! So is programming something I should be getting into?

 

[Knobhead]

The last system I put in I wanted to use Mitsubishi so the company stumped up for the software, got change out of £50! They then changed their minds and wanted Modicon (half way through me writing the program!) the new PLC arrived and it didn’t use Modsoft but PL7. We had to buy the PL7 compiler, not a lot of change out of £800!
As a hint, if you want to have a play around, go for Mitzi. A small PLC isn’t out of the way price wise ether.
What ever you try, they all have their little quirks.

 

[vaughant]

Sorry for hi-jacking but I find myself in a similar situation. Have been using AB/Mitsy/Omron PLC's for the past 2 years. My experience with them only really goes as far as wiring and setting up/troubleshooting physical comms. Havent touched the programming side of these things! So is programming something I should be getting into?

Yes,without a doubt that's where the fun is.
If you can use a plc as a fault finding tool then your opening up a huge amount of opportunities that you wouldn't get simply installing them.
Youve got a huge advantage in that you know the kit as well.
Go for it fella.

 

[shagbite]

Simple, after completing technical course, apply for internship in large companies, and then earn as much experience as you can. hopefully you can get permanent job on the basis of your trainee/internship experience.

i might be wrong, but i thought internships (unpaid) were in breach of minimum wage laws in the uk. i noticed you're residing in the garden state, jack. do you ever see tony and paulie at the bada bing? also, did silvio ever come out of that coma?