Lighting circuit with 2A & 5A sockets

[Octopus]

So, 1970 ish flat, 16ed board fitted in 2007, MCB covering lighting circuit. Lighting circuit has 4 x 2A/5A sockets on it.

Should they be covered by RCD/RCBO?

My feeling is no and code it C3, with a recommendation to upgrade MCB to RCBO?


Thoughts please chaps.

 

[Hawk]

I would have thought no as it was done in line with the regulations at that time. I take it it's not tt and its only lighting plugs that can fit in the sockets?

 

[davesparks]

I would have thought no as it was done in line with the regulations at that time. I take it it's not tt and its only lighting plugs that can fit in the sockets?

It is only 2A or 5A plugs that fit in the sockets, which in a domestic environment will only be lighting. In other environments it could be any number of things on such plugs, not just lighting.

 

[Octopus]

One of the sockets had a 13A fitting on it and had been tripping the MCB!!

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Yes they should be....411.3.3. But if they complied at the time of installation and are not likely to supply equipment outdoors....(clearly not) then code 3.
If you lablel them as specifically for table lamps then no code at all IMO 411.3.3 (b)

Recently I got called out to a similar install with 13a sockets instead of 2/5a's. During a dinner party they'd plugged in a 2kw fan heater....untill someone noticed the dimmer switch was on fire!

 

[spark 68]

Usually on the either/or type codes I look at the rest of it as a whole, if it is all spot on other than being to the earlier edition I tend to be a bit more generous and code more leniently, OTHO hand if it is a pile of poo with other C2s then I code more harshly.

 

[davesparks]

If you lablel them as specifically for table lamps then no code at all IMO 411.3.3 (b)

fire!

Seriously ? If having a socket which only the lamps can be plugged in to and is controlled by a lightswitch isn't enough what the hell difference is a label going to make?

 

[Andy78]

I would code the lack of RCD additional protection for the sockets as C3. I have only ever once issued a C2 for this issue in fact.
However if there is a 13A outlet in place of a 5A outlet (I think this is the case here) on this lighting circuit, then it must be a C2 surely due to the lack of co-ordination between potential current draw and rating of accessories such as light switches. The dangers are pointed out ably by wirepuller's example in post #5.

 

[Octopus]

Seriously ? If having a socket which only the lamps can be plugged in to and is controlled by a lightswitch isn't enough what the hell difference is a label going to make?

They aren't controlled by a switch!

 

[Octopus]

I would code the lack of RCD additional protection for the sockets as C3. I have only ever once issued a C2 for this issue in fact.
However if there is a 13A outlet in place of a 5A outlet (I think this is the case here) on this lighting circuit, then it must be a C2 surely due to the lack of co-ordination between potential current draw and rating of accessories such as light switches. The dangers are pointed out ably by wirepuller's example in post #5.

Yup - I didn't really mention that on the EICR as the client commented about a problem and wanted it fixing!

 

[davesparks]

They aren't controlled by a switch!

Sorry, silly assumption really. I still stand by my point though that are not general use sockets and being a completely different size and shape plug counts as being restricted to a specific load.

 

[Octopus]

Sorry, silly assumption really. I still stand by my point though that are not general use sockets and being a completely different size and shape plug counts as being restricted to a specific load.

BUT it didn't stop a muppet changing a 2A to 13A

 

[Octopus]

I did notice this "neat" bit of earth sleeving on the shaver point.



Yup its normal to use green and yellow but a bit of blue and a bit of brown!!

 

[davesparks]

BUT it didn't stop a muppet changing a 2A to 13A

I'm sure it didn't, but that is a problem in its own right in a regular domestic property.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Seriously ? If having a socket which only the lamps can be plugged in to and is controlled by a lightswitch isn't enough what the hell difference is a label going to make?

Sorry, silly assumption really. I still stand by my point though that are not general use sockets and being a completely different size and shape plug counts as being restricted to a specific load.

I understand where you are coming from but the question is about codeing for lack of RCD protection to a socket outlet. I'll refer you to the reg I quoted which makes no distinction on socket type....only that the rating is 20a or less. Which means that in order not to code a 2/5a socket must either have rcd protection,or be specifically labelled. You are assuming that DIY dave will know that a 2/5a socket is only for a table lamp,thats an assumption too far.

 

[R G]

IMO , these sockets still supply hand held or portable equipment so should be RCD protected , regardless of previous regs..........

 

[Silly Sausage]

I did notice this "neat" bit of earth sleeving on the shaver point.

View attachment 28083

Yup its normal to use green and yellow but a bit of blue and a bit of brown!!

At least it complies with the ratio of colours for a bi-coloured protective conductor! :smilielol5::mickey::cowboy:

 

[R G]

At least it complies with the ratio of colours for a bi-coloured protective conductor! :smilielol5::mickey::cowboy:

I suppose if you're colour blind brown and blue might appear as green and yellow ......

The guy may be on to a nice earner with that invention....LOL.....

 

[Charlie_]

What are your thoughts on using clock plates rather than 2/5 amp sockets?

 

[Octopus]

UPDATE: I changed the MCB for a RCBO as the customer asked me for my opinion - and I said that its a good idea!

 

[Charlie_]

Good on ya!

 

[yellowvanman]

I understand where you are coming from but the question is about codeing for lack of RCD protection to a socket outlet. I'll refer you to the reg I quoted which makes no distinction on socket type....only that the rating is 20a or less. Which means that in order not to code a 2/5a socket must either have rcd protection,or be specifically labelled. You are assuming that DIY dave will know that a 2/5a socket is only for a table lamp,thats an assumption too far.

I see your point but its all open to interpretation!

Note b of the reg you have quoted (411.3.3) states that the socket does not have to be RCD protected if its 'provided for connection of a particular item of equipment' - which the 2A/5A plug does, to my mind.

Obviously some muppet could change a 13A socket to a 2/5A socket but anyone with a screwdriver can do want he wants. All I say is let them suffer the consequences!

 

[Adam W]

IIRC 16th only required RCD protection for sockets where the equipment was likely to be used outside, which would exclude sockets specifically intended for lighting indoors, so I would agree with a C3.

I've given my thoughts on 2/5A lighting sockets and got shot down in flames, so does anyone have any better ideas for keeping installations safe?

 

[Deleted member 9648]

I see your point but its all open to interpretation!

Note b of the reg you have quoted (411.3.3) states that the socket does not have to be RCD protected if its 'provided for connection of a particular item of equipment' - which the 2A/5A plug does, to my mind.

Obviously some muppet could change a 13A socket to a 2/5A socket but anyone with a screwdriver can do want he wants. All I say is let them suffer the consequences!

There's nothing to stop a 2/5a plug being put on any other item of equipment though. you cant assume that such a plug will only be used on a table light,there are plenty of people who would be daft enough to stick a 5a plug on their hair dryer if that was the most convenient socket!

 

[yellowvanman]

There's nothing to stop a 2/5a plug being put on any other item of equipment though. you cant assume that such a plug will only be used on a table light,there are plenty of people who would be daft enough to stick a 5a plug on their hair dryer if that was the most convenient socket!

My point was more to the fact that the regs trys to protect anyone that doesn't have a tool (eg. screwdriver). Anyone with a toolbox can do anything they want, not just change 13A plugs to 2/5A plugs. It just can't legislate for the morons with a screwdriver! In which case they deserve all they get!

 

[richy3333]

Yes they should be....411.3.3. But if they complied at the time of installation and are not likely to supply equipment outdoors....(clearly not) then code 3.
If you lablel them as specifically for table lamps then no code at all IMO 411.3.3 (b)

Recently I got called out to a similar install with 13a sockets instead of 2/5a's. During a dinner party they'd plugged in a 2kw fan heater....untill someone noticed the dimmer switch was on fire!

You'd just love to have seen that.

I went to quote on a new job the other week. TT caravan and outbuildings. Asked to see the origin/cut-out and he opens the cupboard. We both stand there watching the upfront 30mA RCD (yeah I know) smoking. All I could think was to turn to the customer and ask if it normally did that! I just wanted to get photos but isolated the power etc

 

[Guest77]

So, 1970 ish flat, 16ed board fitted in 2007, MCB covering lighting circuit. Lighting circuit has 4 x 2A/5A sockets on it.

Should they be covered by RCD/RCBO?

My feeling is no and code it C3, with a recommendation to upgrade MCB to RCBO?


Thoughts please chaps.

No code for me, this coding has become total bollox

 

[Risteard]

Not coding isn't an option. Lack of RCDs for additional protection is supposed to attract at a minimum a C3 coding (see notes appended to Electrical Installation Condition Report).

 

[Octopus]

No code for me, this coding has become total bollox

Why???