My MCS reg installer does not think my 4KW system needs registering with the DNO !

[Brixnmorta]

The title says it all really, he says that he never registers installations with the DNO unless they are over 4kW.

Every forum I have read says that DNO registration is part of the installation process as much as registering with a supply company for the FIT.

Is there a concise statement of the law on this as I understand it is a legal requirement for installations to be registered within 27 days of commissioning. What penalties are there for not doing so and do they apply to me the customer or the installer?

With thanks
Brixnmorta

 

[Gavin A]

Re: My MCS reg installer does not think my 4KW system needs registering with the DNO

ye gods.

tbh this doesn't surprise me though, as I'm fairly sure this isn't one of the precise tick boxed items that the MCS assessments ask to see, despite it being a legal requirement.

legal basis for this is here http://www.energynetworks.org/modx/assets/files/electricity/engineering/distributed%20generation/080804_HSEexemptioncert.pdf

other info, including the appendix 3 form needed to be submitted is here ENA - Distributed Generation

 

[sedgy34]

Re: My MCS reg installer does not think my 4KW system needs registering with the DNO

the supplier informs the DNO anyway its only on multiple installations in same street DNO needs to be informed by the installer

 

[Earthstore]

Re: My MCS reg installer does not think my 4KW system needs registering with the DNO

The title says it all really, he says that he never registers installations with the DNO unless they are over 4kW.

I am shocked....
Is this the level of installer that we now have in the UK?

I have to say I am appalled by some of the things that I have seen in this industry.
The government seem to think that because somebody signs up to a code of conduct or pays an annual fee to MCS/REAL that the workmanship and standards will be first class, this clearly is not the case.

Your system should be restricted at the inverter to 3.68KW/16A to be compliant to G83 rules (Install and inform DNO within 28 days),
If the inverter is not G83 compliant then your installer has to obtain permission from the DNO to connect to the grid (G59).

My advice would be to tell your installer that he is wrong and he has a duty to inform the DNO, and under the circumstances ask for proof that they have done this.

Good luck.

 

[SolarCity]

Re: My MCS reg installer does not think my 4KW system needs registering with the DNO

the supplier informs the DNO anyway its only on multiple installations in same street DNO needs to be informed by the installer

I can't believe that that is right. The DNO needs to have test forms, circuit diagrams and type test certificates - the supplier doesn't have these so I can't see how they can be informing the DNO of the connection.

 

[SolarCity]

Re: My MCS reg installer does not think my 4KW system needs registering with the DNO

Regarding OP, I'd be a bit concerned. If I were you, I'd speak to the DNO and ask them their opinion. They could, in theory, refuse you connection if they consider that the G83 process hasn't been followed correctly. And lets be honest, it's not exactly difficult to do, is it?

 

[provr6]

Re: My MCS reg installer does not think my 4KW system needs registering with the DNO

Isn't the DNO the same person as the FIT provider? Also how would a consumer know if its been registered with the DNO? Is that something the installer is required to prove to the customer?

 

[Earthstore]

Re: My MCS reg installer does not think my 4KW system needs registering with the DNO

DNO, is the District network operator, (the people that run the grid) here in oxfordshire it is Scottish and Southern.

Then you have your energy provider, which you can choose from whoever you believe is offering you the best deal, it is an open market.

Your FIT provider can also be whoever you choose, you can use your energy provider if you wish, or you can use another company, all of my customers have their FITs registered with Good Energy, this is on my advise as I like their customer service.

I hope this helps.

 

[SolarCity]

Re: My MCS reg installer does not think my 4KW system needs registering with the DNO

No, the DNO is seperate to the FIT provider.

If the installer goes through the correct process then a consumer should receive a letter from the DNO explaining that they are permitted to connect to the grid.

 

[provr6]

Re: My MCS reg installer does not think my 4KW system needs registering with the DNO

I didn't get a letter from the DNO and am thinking the installer may not have told them. Is this likely to be a problem and are you up **** street because 28 days have passed since comissioning?

 

[SolarCity]

Re: My MCS reg installer does not think my 4KW system needs registering with the DNO

I would hope that the DNO would be understanding. It may be the case that Sedgy is right and the supplier informs the DNO - I would definitely make sure if I were you though.

 

[Gavin A]

Re: My MCS reg installer does not think my 4KW system needs registering with the DNO

the supplier informs the DNO anyway its only on multiple installations in same street DNO needs to be informed by the installer

no they don't, not only that but they legally can't, as the installer has to sign the bit titled 'declaration to be completed by installer' to declare that it has been installed and commissioned correctly.

The installer is responsible for submitting the appendix 3 notification to the DNO within 28 days of the installation, otherwise the installation is illegal, and presumably the installer could face prosecution under the ESQCR / health and safety at work act in the event that the DNO became aware of your installation.

You're referring to the advance permission that is required for multiple installations, which is a different situation. Check the links I previously posted if you don't believe me.

 

[Gavin A]

Re: My MCS reg installer does not think my 4KW system needs registering with the DNO

I didn't get a letter from the DNO and am thinking the installer may not have told them. Is this likely to be a problem and are you up **** street because 28 days have passed since comissioning?

It's really the installers responsibility, but it's possible that you could find yourself being told to disconnect your system at a later date if the DNO didn't know about it, and turned up to look for the source of local grid problems (usually that'd only be in the case that your neighbours had also had PV installed, but as the dno didn't know about your system they thought it ought still to be within the specs etc).

So far, it looks as if nobodies really been enforcing this stuff, but at some point I wouldn't be surprised if Ofgem put the appendix 3 database together with the MCS / FIT database and start sending out enforcement notices to those where the notification hadn't been done.

We've had a couple that ended up being sent in late, usually due to missing MPAN numbers or something, and it's not been a problem so far, but I'd definitely ask your installer for a copy of the appendix 3 notification form, and the approval letter from the DNO (that can take a fair few weeks to be returned to the installer).

 

[moggy1968]

Re: My MCS reg installer does not think my 4KW system needs registering with the DNO

I've had no approval letters from SSE for any of the installs I have notified to them.
On my assessment today I asked him if he wanted to see copies of my notification paperwork but he wasn't interested.

 

[SRE]

Re: My MCS reg installer does not think my 4KW system needs registering with the DNO

Electricity North West are ace, acknowledge every notification and provide advice at the drop of a hat, they've just approved a multiple installation for us today even though we're just quoting at the minute. We have to notify every job though, that's standard and I'm pretty shocked to see peeps who post regularly not realising that. Maybe got the wrong info from the DNO when they rang?????

 

[Gavin A]

Re: My MCS reg installer does not think my 4KW system needs registering with the DNO

I've had no approval letters from SSE for any of the installs I have notified to them.
On my assessment today I asked him if he wanted to see copies of my notification paperwork but he wasn't interested.

odd. I've just checked the paperwork for the jobs we've done up in scotland, and there does seem to be a lack of any response from SSE to any notifications.

I probably ought to also own up to finding one file that very suspiciously has 3 unsigned appendix 3 forms in it from last summer, so it looks like that'll be one that we accidentally didn't send off... *slaps wrist*

The assessors not being interested was what I was talking about with the lack of a tick box for it, which is a serious oversight given the rubbish they do have tick boxes for.

 

[moggy1968]

Re: My MCS reg installer does not think my 4KW system needs registering with the DNO

odd.
I probably ought to also own up to finding one file that very suspiciously has 3 unsigned appendix 3 forms in it from last summer, so it looks like that'll be one that we accidentally didn't send off... *slaps wrist*

I think you'll find that you did send them off, but as they're such a disorganised shower they lost the paperwork, but of course you would be more than happy to supply them with duplicates:6:

 

[MickF]

Re: My MCS reg installer does not think my 4KW system needs registering with the DNO

SSE don't send out responses, if you emailed in your notifications (to the correct, forever changing email address !!) then you will have got an automated response - they consider that as your receipt of notification and don't expect to hear anything else ....

 

[BruceB]

Re: My MCS reg installer does not think my 4KW system needs registering with the DNO

Western Power Distribution have acknowledged all my G83 notifications within a week, in each case issuing a letter giving permission to operate the installation in parallel with their network. The letter needs to be passed onto the customer as it also details ongoing responsibilities that fall on them.

 

[moggy1968]

Re: My MCS reg installer does not think my 4KW system needs registering with the DNO

I've only dealt with WP a couple of times, they are so much more organised than SSE it's hard to beleieve they are part of the same industry!
I had great difficulty even getting the forms from SSE. when I mentioned this to them on the phone they acknowledged it was a problem. I explained WP could be found through a simple Google search, so why couldn't SSE do the same via their web page. The response was a very helpful, 'well, we aren't Western Power so we aren't interested in what they do!'

 

[MickF]

Re: My MCS reg installer does not think my 4KW system needs registering with the DNO

SSE Power Distribution - Stage 1 process
SSE Power Distribution - Stage 2 process
SSE Power Distribution - Less than 50kW

Their site is not particularly helpful, they use the ENA documents as published by the ENA (their links go directly there ...)

Oh... and they want a special format for the subject line (which they don't tell you on their website ...)

 

[cbw]

Re: My MCS reg installer does not think my 4KW system needs registering with the DNO

UK power networks confirm all notifications by email, this confirmation goes in all hand over packs that we do, keeps it all above board

Copy of recent one.

Thank you for your communication.



The email address [email protected]
is for G83 Commissioning Notifications only.



Please accept this as our acknowledgement of your email.



If you have sent an Application to connect a single installation which
exceeds 3.84kW per phase, you need to contact UK Power Networks via the
email address [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>

or call on 0845 234 0040.



If you need to apply for Multiple Installations (i.e. G83 Stage 2
Process) please complete the form "APPLICATION FOR PRIOR DISTRIBUTOR
CONSENT FOR CONNECTION OF MULTIPLE INSTALLATIONS", which is available on
our website at:
http://www.ukpowernetworks.co.uk/products-services/networks/pdf/G83_mult
iple_installation_application_form.doc



Best regards,

 

[Brixnmorta]

Re: My MCS reg installer does not think my 4KW system needs registering with the DNO

Thanks for all your comments, my installer now confirms he will register my system.

 

[provr6]

Re: My MCS reg installer does not think my 4KW system needs registering with the DNO

UK power networks confirm all notifications by email, this confirmation goes in all hand over packs that we do, keeps it all above board

Copy of recent one.

Thank you for your communication.



The email address [email protected]
is for G83 Commissioning Notifications only.



Please accept this as our acknowledgement of your email.



If you have sent an Application to connect a single installation which
exceeds 3.84kW per phase, you need to contact UK Power Networks via the
email address [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>

or call on 0845 234 0040.



If you need to apply for Multiple Installations (i.e. G83 Stage 2
Process) please complete the form "APPLICATION FOR PRIOR DISTRIBUTOR
CONSENT FOR CONNECTION OF MULTIPLE INSTALLATIONS", which is available on
our website at:
http://www.ukpowernetworks.co.uk/products-services/networks/pdf/G83_mult
iple_installation_application_form.doc



Best regards,

Sorry, but are we saying that only installations above 3.84kw need to informed to the DNO or does it apply to all installations no matter how small?

 

[cbw]

Re: My MCS reg installer does not think my 4KW system needs registering with the DNO

All installations.

What they are saying there is anything above 3.84 needs to be notified/permission obtained from a different department G59

 

[Earthstore]

Re: My MCS reg installer does not think my 4KW system needs registering with the DNO

Sorry, but are we saying that only installations above 3.84kw need to informed to the DNO or does it apply to all installations no matter how small?

Just to clarify
Systems up to 16A (3.68KWP) can be installed then notify the DNO after installation (unless you are installing multiple systems in the same area), this is under G83 rules, the installer has 28 days including the day of installation in which to do this.

Systems over 16A (3.68KWP) will need permission prior to installation from the DNO,
this is under G59 rules.

I am aware that some DNO's will except up to 4KWP under G83, but this is not the norm.

For those that may not be aware the DNO is the district network operator, that is the people that run the grid in your area, they may not be your energy provider, or your FIT provider, as you are free to choose who you pay your electricity bills to and who to register you FIT with.

I hope this helps.

 

[provr6]

Re: My MCS reg installer does not think my 4KW system needs registering with the DNO

I spoke to an electrician friend of mine (not the installer) and he reckons it's the customers responsibility to notify the DNO. From what I've read above that dosen't seem feasible.

 

[SolarCity]

Re: My MCS reg installer does not think my 4KW system needs registering with the DNO

I would suggest that your electrician friend is perhaps getting confused with the FIT application which does indeed need to come from the customer.

The DNO notification must come from the installer as, as has been previously mentioned, there is a declaration signed by the installer.

 

[provr6]

Re: My MCS reg installer does not think my 4KW system needs registering with the DNO

I said the same thing to him and he was well aware that the DNO had to be notified and said he clearly points it out to his customers they should do it.

I'm sure you are right though, if it requires an installers declaration, then the customer obviously can't comply with this requirement.

Do you think that the DNO will allow you to notify them now that 28 days have passed, or is there a chance they will say too late, thanks for telling us now disconnect it! even though it isn't causing a problem to the grid.

Not sure whether to let sleeping dogs lie or tell them now to avoid a possible problem in the future.

 

[SibertSolar]

Re: My MCS reg installer does not think my 4KW system needs registering with the DNO

Interesting feedback from UK Power Networks posted above - are they using 240vac as the nominal grid voltage? Some DNOs appear to be using 230vac......which do you guys recognise as being correct? This can have an impact on the G83 type test certification of the inverters in use....

 

[matt25]

Re: My MCS reg installer does not think my 4KW system needs registering with the DNO

Western Power Distribution definitly allow up to 3.9kWp systems under G83 and also send a confirmation letter to us everytime, we then pass a copy onto the client. To test if this was correct i once sent them a G59 application up front, only to be told to send G83 doc when the project was completed, I like WPD!
My bet is that it depends on who you talk to or who process's the paperwork, not right but that seems to be the way of the world lately

 

[provr6]

Re: My MCS reg installer does not think my 4KW system needs registering with the DNO

Is there a database where you can check if your system has been notified to the DNO?