No Pay No Power

[HRL]

Hello everybody,

As my first post not sure how I should start. Here goes.

I have been a full rewire in a designated commercial dental surgery, it has its own supply and no private dwellings involved.
The surgery has been shut since October while all building work is carried out, payments have been fine up until just after christmas. Then for whatever reason payments stopped, I continued to work for quite sometime without being paid, and still provided materials on the grounds that payment will be made "soon". I had no reason to doubt this, however payment was never coming so i pulled off site.

I had certain circuits being used, i.e lighting and a few power circuits. i have carried out my testing and documented it but never handed the certificates over. There are no fire alarm certificates issued, emergency lighting circuits issued, and no electrical certificates issued.

At the beginning of the week i visited site to see what was happening only to find there were patients being operated on .

After leaving in complete amazement I tried to contact the owner chasing my money but to no avail. I thought about her using it as a working practice and decided that I should pay a visit and if there is no real break-through i would isolate the supply and make the building safe, so I did. I removed the meter tails from the henley block to the dis board and removed the mainswitch.

Obviously the owner went crazy and threatened the police, however I believe i would be liable if anything had happened so on the ground of health and safety and for peace of mind i did what i tought was right.

Oh and i didn't break in and wasn't aggressive.

Is this wrong in the eyes of the law?
Anybody know what the rules are on the owner turning on other circuits and trading like they are?

Thanks in advance from all in HRL

 

[dufjax]

I take it you had a contract that stated something to the effect "Goods remain the property of _ _ _ _ _ until paid for in full"

Jim

 

[HRL]

it is on the bottom of my invoices.

 

[dufjax]

Well I can't see you've done much wrong legally, but you may want to run it past a solicitor. Find it's really helpful to be a legal firms spark and get to know the partners by first name.. Then they only charge you £150 an hour and not £300

 

[bugsy]

What you did was out of order.

Firstly if your NIC registered they are going be after your backside ,
Secendly you were trespassing I.E. on the property without permission ( this is not a criminal offence but stillagainst the law ( it;s a tort - civil offence)

I know your proberbly really gagging at the bit now

Your best action is to in form him that his/ her public liability ins will be void ( no certs )
and public safety is at risk , then infoem them you will be contacting the local council and reporting him
If that doent work ( It wiil ) your have to go through small claims - been there donit got the tee shirt

 

[Davey101]

What you did was out of order.

Firstly if your NIC registered they are going be after your backside ,
Secendly you were trespassing I.E. on the property without permission ( this is not a criminal offence but stillagainst the law ( it;s a tort - civil offence)

No offence Bugsy, but HTF is he out of order?

If it is a simple case of communication breakdown/cashflow problems, then it may be a bit over the top, but if its a straight forward case of non-payment, then I say good for him.

The builder husband of a friend of my girlfriend went bankrupt last year, due to a non paying customer on a large job he did. I was laughing my *** off when I read the OP. I hope he gets his money now.

 

[bugsy]

I really sypathise with him
1: there were paitents in the building undergoing treatment, If any of were hurt due his actions they could sue him simple as .

I had the same experince 15yrs ago young and hot headed with an indian restraunt I walk in there at
8 pm on a saturday night told i had to chech a dimmer rack after a bit of prep i asked the manager to come into the basement and told him if he didnt pay i would disconnect - he didnt - i did and ended up in court

 

[TPES]

Good on you matey.... I've heard of this done before, And i would do the same in your position.

Even if i was told this is wrong in the eyes of the law it wouldn't stop me from doing what you did.

So many tradesman i know of have been shafted over by customers not paying up.

 

[dufjax]

I've a mate who years ago did a domestic rewire, when the owner wouldn't pay him he went round with a sledge hammer and smashed the board up. He's now quite high up in NG (Irish cream)

Jim

 

[Davey101]

I really sypathise with him
1: there were paitents in the building undergoing treatment, If any of were hurt due his actions they could sue him simple as .

I had the same experince 15yrs ago young and hot headed with an indian restraunt I walk in there at
8 pm on a saturday night told i had to chech a dimmer rack after a bit of prep i asked the manager to come into the basement and told him if he didnt pay i would disconnect - he didnt - i did and ended up in court

Not saying he's right in the eyes of the law, but morally he is. Would have done it first thing before any patients arrived

How did you get on in court, and did you get your money?

 

[bugsy]

Before I went to court went back with a pai of croppers cut all out going circuits for the dimmer racks and chopped out his supply for the kitchen put a notice in all local wholesalers.

I went to court judge was very nice ( lady ) and gave my an uncoditional discharge
although only because of a technicality due to the case representation

Matey at the restraunt paid me up front - including putting right.

 

[HRL]

There was a patient in there, i waited until she had gone, never endangered anybody.
The emergency lighting was fully functional. A good three hour test if you ask me!
Thanks for your responses

 

[bugsy]

In that case if they try to take things further your defence will be that you had not certified the installation the fire alarms and em's had not been tested and after careful consideration of the risk assement ( as they would not have been insured 0) you decieded your actions were in the clients intrest

 

[HRL]

Do you think that is good enough grounds for a solid case?

 

[m4tty]

Get the papers involved .... helps sometimes think someone on here had someone at The Sun help them out on something like this

 

[1shortcircuit]

Do you think that is good enough grounds for a solid case?

Were you able to isolate the power LEGALLY in order to remove the tails?

 

[bugsy]

Do you think that is good enough grounds for a solid case?

Belive me if you mention the fact that they were working without p/l they will have to think long and hard before they take it any further. If they suggest legal action wait unitil you hear from their solicitors before doing anything, then if need be reply to them quoting the H/S issues and they will proberbly advise their client to drop the case. For them to be operating without P/L in indefenceable. Just make sure that in passing this gets mentioned even so ingorance is no defence for the law.

 

[HRL]

Yeah it was a legal isolation, (well i believe it to be in my experience but would like any comments) it was the outgoing meter tails from the henley block, no tags were cut. These tails were taped and mark as unsafe to reconnect, (as this is what I thought they would do, just get another electrician in to reconnect it and resupply another mainswitch).

 

[lj.l]

I did a rewire a few years ago and had to dissconnect a few outbuildings as client expected me to do this as well and it wasnt priced for (grant aided work) .Client then refused to pay me extras as agreed because the sheds I disconected were "essential" for his sons business and he had to pay another spark a conisidabral amount to reconnect them.In my reply letter I mentioned EWAR, BS7671,BS5266,BS5389 and how I was puzzeled how his son got insurance without meeting these standards.Got check by return of post.
Stick at it and inform the revelant authorities if need be

 

[HRL]

Well I tried all of the options today and am now awaiting a response. I think they are going to have it reconnected by a NIC domestic installer, he has told her that he can certify my work, Some people!!! (A Polish electrician)

 

[bugsy]

NO he can't , are you registered with anybody

 

[HRL]

Been self-employed for three years but permenently supplied work by somebody else, just going for my NIC now, got my inspections next week

 

[Risteard]

Hardly very safe leaving live tails just taped up.

 

[HRL]

disconnected from the henley block on the forward going side. What is not safe about that. Taped and labelled unsafe to reconnect.

 

[leekemp85]

Hardly very safe leaving live tails just taped up.

I dont think HRL left live tales taped up,

 

[HRL]

quite right, they were not live, i don't want to kill the client.

 

[bugsy]

Hardly very safe leaving live tails just taped up.

I dont think you read the post correctly

 

[Risteard]

I dont think you read the post correctly

Probably not. I've an eye infection which means I can barely see at present so I may well have read it wrong.

 

[bugsy]

Been self-employed for three years but permenently supplied work by somebody else, just going for my NIC now, got my inspections next week[/QUOT

This is getting S****y is it a new build, or has there been any communication with building control over the work?

 

[HRL]

No there has been no communication with building control at all I don't think, I was getting my old "employer" to check it and sign it off, (he's had some element of input and is approved) but was then going to use it towards going approved contractor. Its a old building being converted, right in Covent Garden, London.

 

[bugsy]

Get in touch with building control I think its westminter city council ( south team ) have a word and sound them out explain the problem , ( you were not complete / not suitable for occupation ) and they've got a ploish lot in ( you'll be supprised how helpful thay can be

 

[HRL]

Yeah thanks for that, think i might, it'll certainly stir things up anyway....

 

[bugsy]

Yeah thanks for that, think i might, it'll certainly stir things up anyway....

If you need to contact them go onto their website and follow the links

 

[saveloy]

Well I tried all of the options today and am now awaiting a response. I think they are going to have it reconnected by a NIC domestic installer, he has told her that he can certify my work, Some people!!! (A Polish electrician)

Call the NIC and give them the address and inform them of the situation. Hopefully they won't take too kindly to him signing off someone elses work.

 

[andekoch]

hmmm. Just experiencing something similar myself at the moment. Client paid no problem for the first few invoices (been invoicing every 2 weeks). Mid Jan invoice not been paid for 2 weeks now and handed in end of jan invoice and told them I will return when both have been paid. Last 2 invoices mainly for material (that is all in my garage at the moment, until money clears in the bank).

My issue is that he has twice told me that the mid jan invoice has been paid and agin today he said it is being paid today (nice that it has been paid 3 times now, pity just not into my account though).

I am sure we all will resolve itself soon and I will be back o the job to finish it without any ill feelings on either side, just need to be upfront and keep talking to the client.

 

[bugsy]

andy ,Thats the way to go, keep talking don't get stroppy but stick to your guns

 

[uksel]

legally you're completely in the wrong, even as far as BS7671 is concerned.

if it was a new installation it should have been safely isolated and locked off by you, with one key only - held by you! and the installation never energised unless it was done by you, after comleting the tests and the relevant paperwork.

if it was a periodic inspection and you came across an immediately dangerous situation, your first action should always be to stop testing and inform the client without delay and strongly reccomend the installation be made safe by means of isolation.

it's not up to you to turn someones power off (unless it is included in the extent and limitations of a PIR), only advise them as a competant person

 

[lj.l]

He may well be in the wrong leaglly but the client is wrong morally .I really hate to see this happening its the worst/best part of the job getting paid ,I hate it when someone has put so much time an effort and money into somebody elses' work as they requested only to be f**ed about with money.
The time has come for money upfront and a bit of support .
The first question I ask if I'm asked to finish a job is why the other guy aint finishing it and always ask to get speaking to original guy.
suppose polish guys dont care . we are paying for thier children back home anyway

 

[uksel]

i hope his practice burns down, and no hardworking bloke desrves to get shafted like this

The law protects the guilty