Not sure what our options are. Advice required for homeowner please.

[eiluj68]

Hi

Apologies for the length of this post but I'd like to provide as much information as possible

We moved house last October knowing that the property would require a full rewire. Our electrician completed the rewire (including new consumer unit) in December last year and although we were unhappy about his reliability at points during the process, we were pleased that the job had been completed and that he had issued a certificate detailing the work done. The rewire didn't include any work in the bathroom or kitchen as our intention was to completely refurbish these rooms at a later date.

That time has now come and we decided against using the previous electrician due to the reliability issues mentioned above A local electrician came to the house last night to discuss our requirements. He had a few questions about the exisiting electrical set up so I dug out the 3 page certificate that the previous electrician had issued. Upon viewing the certificate the electrician commented that the certificate didn't show which body the issuing electrician belonged to. He said that without the registration body information and registration number the certificate would not be acceptable to building control. He also said that the previous work should have been notified to building control either prior to work commencing by an unregistered person or afterwards by the registered 'competent person'.

This set off alarm bells. I've spent this morning online trying to find him listed with one of the registered bodies but he doesn't appear on any of the sites I've been to. I've looked at NICEIC, ELECSA, NAPIT,BSI, Kitemark and Benchmark Certification Ltd (CORGI Membership). Are there any others he could be registered with that would allow him to certify his work?

We had used this electrician on a smaller job (wiring an ensuite shower room) at our old home 3 or 4 years ago and had been really pleased with his work. He had issued a certificate for this work too and also came heavily recommended on a local community website, so we had no reason to think he shouldn't be certifying his own work. Although no rewiring took place in the bathroom, kitchen and garden areas I'm assuming that this is notifiable work because he installed a new consumer unit?

I'm not sure what to do next. I haven't spoken with the electrician yet because I want to get my facts straight first. I'm worried about contacting the council because I've read that they can fine the householder upto £5000 if work that should have been notified in advance hasn't been. I also need to understand what we might be forced to do if the certificate is invalid. Are we likely to have to lift all our floorboards again and reexpose all the cables within the walls ?

This is so frustrating because we would never have had the electrician undertake the job if there'd been any suggestion that he could not certify his own work.

Apart from berating us for being so foolish as to take him at his word without checking him out further at the time, can anyone offer any constructive advice on how we should deal with this situation. Although we've lived at our current address less than a year we want to ensure that we don't have any problems when we come to sell in the future.

Many thanks for taking the time to read this and for any useful advice you may be able to provide.

 

[Octopus]

I feel for you as it would seem that you may have been "had". Have you got any paperwork other than the certificate you were issued with any reference to his registration?

This link is the place to search for your "previous" electrician:

Local Authority Building Control - HOME

It would be a good idea to check this site against any electrician claiming to be part of a scheme before you engage them to do work in your house from now on.

For anyone else who reads this, and they are contemplating getting notifiable work done, its important that you get the scheme name and number off the individual as part of the estimating process. If the electrican is registered they will have the information to hand, if they are evasive it should set alarm bells ringing.

Good luck

 

[eiluj68]

I feel for you as it would seem that you may have been "had". Have you got any paperwork other than the certificate you were issued with any reference to his registration?

This link is the place to search for your "previous" electrician:

Local Authority Building Control - HOME

Thanks for replying. Yes I think you are correct. We do appear to have been "had". The electrician in question isn't listed on the link you provided. The only communication we have other than verbal is an emailed quote which has no registration details, just an address and contact number.

Does anyone have any idea of how building control are likely to respond in this scenario? Is it worth having a full PIR done or is that a waste of time and money in these circumstances. My understanding is that no electrician will be able to certify this work even after a full PIR. Is this correct?

Do we have any other option other than going to building control?

 

[Octopus]

I think that the only way to get an answer on this scenario would be to speak/visit building control for your area. I'm sure that you won't be the first person to have this conversation with them, nor the last. More importantly they will be able to guide you as to what you need to do next.

Its a shame that there isn't a way to name and shame the scam electricians!

 

[ban-all-sheds]

1) Being competent to work to, and certify compliance with the Wiring Regulations is different from being able to self-certify compliance with the Building Regulations, and there's no need to belong to any of the registration bodies to be able to do the former, so you have no need to worry, per se, that the actual work he did was dodgy.

Did he actually issue you with anything saying that the work complied with the Building Regulations, or just an EIC certifying compliance with BS 7671? If the former he was guilty of fraud, if the latter then your recent electrician was scaremongering - there's nothing intrinsically wrong with an EIC issued by an unregistered electrician.


2) You didn't do the work, so you weren't required to notify it, and it's not you who is liable for prosecution, fines or imprisonment. (In practice neither is the electrician - there has never been an instance of anyone being prosecuted just for failing to notify.)

You could talk to your LABC about it, and see if there's any way you can get a regularisation certificate (which will cost ££ - typically they charge twice what the notification fee would have been). They might be happy with a PIR (Periodic Inspection Report), in which case the total cost to you will almost certainly come in at under £1,000.

PLAN B - don't talk to LABC, have whoever you get to do the kitchen and bathroom also carry out a thorough inspection and test of the other work, and when you sell, if you're asked, tell the prospective purchaser what happened, tell them that you had it all professionally checked out when you realised what had happened and it was all found to be OK.

 

[Octopus]

1) Being competent to work to, and certify compliance with the Wiring Regulations is different from being able to self-certify compliance with the Building Regulations, and there's no need to belong to any of the registration bodies to be able to do the former, so you have no need to worry, per se, that the actual work he did was dodgy.

Did he actually issue you with anything saying that the work complied with the Building Regulations, or just an EIC certifying compliance with BS 7671? If the former he was guilty of fraud, if the latter then your recent electrician was scaremongering - there's nothing intrinsically wrong with an EIC issued by an unregistered electrician.


2) You didn't do the work, so you weren't required to notify it, and it's not you who is liable for prosecution, fines or imprisonment. (In practice neither is the electrician - there has never been an instance of anyone being prosecuted just for failing to notify.)

You could talk to your LABC about it, and see if there's any way you can get a regularisation certificate (which will cost ££ - typically they charge twice what the notification fee would have been). They might be happy with a PIR (Periodic Inspection Report), in which case the total cost to you will almost certainly come in at under £1,000.

PLAN B - don't talk to LABC, have whoever you get to do the kitchen and bathroom also carry out a thorough inspection and test of the other work, and when you sell, if you're asked, tell the prospective purchaser what happened, tell them that you had it all professionally checked out when you realised what had happened and it was all found to be OK.

A some contraversial approach to the question. Seems you have form on forums!

 

[ban-all-sheds]

It would be a good idea to check this site against any electrician claiming to be part of a scheme before you engage them to do work in your house from now on.

For anyone else who reads this, and they are contemplating getting notifiable work done, its important that you get the scheme name and number off the individual as part of the estimating process. If the electrican is registered they will have the information to hand, if they are evasive it should set alarm bells ringing.

Good luck

That's good advice, and should be followed, but I would add that it's not enough on its own to ensure people get a competent electrician.

As ever, personal recommendations are always the best way to find a reputable tradesman, but if you're having to go ahead without much in the way of those, or references, don't put any store by registration itself - sadly it is possible to become registered with woefully inadequate qualifications and zero practical experience. You don't have to spend long here to see people cropping up who are registered and "qualified", but who are clearly seriously incompetent in reality and who should not be charging for their services.

The OP was looking for someone to rewire a house, and it may surprise and dismay him to learn that it is quite possible to become a "certified electrician" without ever having done that before, and without having acquired any of the practical skills needed to do it without half-destroying peoples houses in the process.

I think prospective customers have every right to ask prospective tradesmen what their qualifications and experience are. Just being listed here is not a good enough guide. No genuinely experienced electrician, with the "full set" of C&G qualifications will mind you asking - in fact he will wish that everyone was like you.

I feel sorry for people who have been misled by training organisations and (shamefully) the Competent Person scheme organisers into thinking that a 5-day training course, a couple of trivial examples of their work and some basic understanding of how to use test equipment will make them an electrician, but not sorry enough to agree with them trying to sell their services to Joe Public.

 

[Octopus]

That's good advice, and should be followed, but I would add that it's not enough on its own to ensure people get a competent electrician.

As ever, personal recommendations are always the best way to find a reputable tradesman, but if you're having to go ahead without much in the way of those, or references, don't put any store by registration itself - sadly it is possible to become registered with woefully inadequate qualifications and zero practical experience. You don't have to spend long here to see people cropping up who are registered and "qualified", but who are clearly seriously incompetent in reality and who should not be charging for their services.

The OP was looking for someone to rewire a house, and it may surprise and dismay him to learn that it is quite possible to become a "certified electrician" without ever having done that before, and without having acquired any of the practical skills needed to do it without half-destroying peoples houses in the process.

I think prospective customers have every right to ask prospective tradesmen what their qualifications and experience are. Just being listed here is not a good enough guide. No genuinely experienced electrician, with the "full set" of C&G qualifications will mind you asking - in fact he will wish that everyone was like you.

I feel sorry for people who have been misled by training organisations and (shamefully) the Competent Person scheme organisers into thinking that a 5-day training course, a couple of trivial examples of their work and some basic understanding of how to use test equipment will make them an electrician, but not sorry enough to agree with them trying to sell their services to Joe Public.

A some contraversial approach to the question. Seems you have form on forums and now this one

 

[eiluj68]

Its a shame that there isn't a way to name and shame the scam electricians!

Well I could always post a warning on the local forum where he is currently highly recommended. He gets a lot of business via that route. :biggrin5:

I'd have to be careful though. Probably wouldn't be allowed to name names but I could warn everyone to check registration details of any electricians they use.

One more question - does the fact that the he issued a certificate prove that he was trying to pass himself off as a 'competent person' or is it common for these certificates to be issued regardless. I'm just trying to pre-empt his response when I contact him. I'm just wondering if he might claim that the certificate is purely a list of all the individual jobs/tests that he's done, rather than an attempt to officially "certify" his work.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

A some contraversial approach to the question.

So you don't think that choosing an electrician solely on the basis of being registered is dodgy? You think that any electrician who is registered is guaranteed to be fully competent?

I'd love to know what you think is controversial in what I wrote....

 

[ban-all-sheds]

One more question - does the fact that the he issued a certificate prove that he was trying to pass himself off as a 'competent person' or is it common for these certificates to be issued regardless. I'm just trying to pre-empt his response when I contact him. I'm just wondering if he might claim that the certificate is purely a list of all the individual jobs/tests that he's done, rather than an attempt to officially "certify" his work.

What certificate did he give you?

 

[simonspark]

Hey Murdoch. I've just done a searh for me on the link you put in, and I don''t exist!
I'm nic approved etc. So where am I?

 

[vernam616]

well by the sounds of it he doesnt sound all that dodgy

How many scam electricians just dont bother testing? take the money and run?

Hes took the time to test his work and issue a certificate, personally id call him and tell him your not happy and ask for a explanation

You could always pay someone to change your consumer unit albeit it doesnt need doing, whoever changes that is responsible for testing the full installation


Or play completely dumb, if anything ever crops up just say the rewire was carried out prior to you moving in by previous owners/tenants

 

[alanl]

I did the same, and came with no result, but then I read it more, and only put the 1st 3 digits of the postcode, and 2 letters of name, and it came up.
Alan.

 

[eiluj68]

That's good advice, and should be followed, but I would add that it's not enough on its own to ensure people get a competent electrician.

As ever, personal recommendations are always the best way to find a reputable tradesman

Thanks for the reply. We did find the electrician by way of recommendation on our local community forum/website. We've successfully sourced other tradesmen via this route before but our luck ran out this time. I guess we were too complacent and should have been more thorough with our checks. Lesson learned!

 

[simonspark]

Eiluj68. There are certain certificates that anyone can buy over the counter, or download for free. Anyone can get them. Can you scan them, with name address etc blanked out, and Im sure me and the guys will suss out whats what

 

[Octopus]

Well I could always post a warning on the local forum where he is currently highly recommended. He gets a lot of business via that route. :biggrin5:

I'd have to be careful though. Probably wouldn't be allowed to name names but I could warn everyone to check registration details of any electricians they use.

One more question - does the fact that the he issued a certificate prove that he was trying to pass himself off as a 'competent person' or is it common for these certificates to be issued regardless. I'm just trying to pre-empt his response when I contact him. I'm just wondering if he might claim that the certificate is purely a list of all the individual jobs/tests that he's done, rather than an attempt to officially "certify" his work.

The fact he issued a certificate, at the very least is some form of acknowledgement that certificates are required.

I guess it would come down to what his written, emailed estimate said - did he refer to LABC (local area building control) notification in any way? When I provide estimates for notifiable work, this is confirmed on my estimate.

 

[eiluj68]

What certificate did he give you?

Hi,

I'm at work at the moment so don't have the certificate to hand. It had 3 pages and was green and white as I recall. Each room was listed and there were boxes for testing results which had all been completed.

 

[eiluj68]

Eiluj68. There are certain certificates that anyone can buy over the counter, or download for free. Anyone can get them. Can you scan them, with name address etc blanked out, and Im sure me and the guys will suss out whats what

Thanks. I'll scan them in when I get home.

You guys are great :smiley2: Thanks so much for all your replies so far.

 

[alanl]

Before going off on one, maybe you should ask him if he is Registered for Self-certification.
I know the paperwork and test results I give out do not show any membership number etc., and as a Sole Trader, it can be easy to confuse the Trading name, and my own name, so a search may not bring up the details of my business.
To be honest, if you are happy with the work he did, then there is little reason to take things further, as it appears he knew what he was doing by thorough testing, and he did issue test results and Install Cert., so if these tally up, then there is no safety problem if he has followed the current regulations.

This ncould all be down to a lost in the post certificate from the Governing body, or he may have forgotten to register it with the body. i know I have come close to not notifying as I have forgotten about some jobs. A rewire I did was spread over 6 weeks, and that was nearly not notified, I only remebered as I had to go back and fit a new light.

Chill a little!
Alan.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Hi,

I'm at work at the moment so don't have the certificate to hand. It had 3 pages and was green and white as I recall. Each room was listed and there were boxes for testing results which had all been completed.

Sounds like an EIC, whch he should have issued anyway, registered or not.

Issuing one, detailing the testing etc that he did, is not only not an attempt to pass himself off as registered, it is required by the Wiring Regulations.

Unless it's a complete fabrication, the fact that he did one is encouraging - try vernam's first suggestion. (But not his 3rd - it's not worth risking a prosecution for fraud, no matter how small the risk.)

 

[vernam616]

How are they going to prove that you had that rewire carried out? you cant specifically tell when cable/accs where installed

There will only ever be a problem if something go's wrong, get a registered electrician out to carry out a full inspection

 

[Octopus]

I agree that it's a small risk, but...

Essentially you'd be making false statements as part of a financial transaction with a value of hundreds of thousands of pounds - it just isn't worth it.

In one of your earlier posts you were advocating not talking to LABC, surely that is also a no no?????????

 

[rob121]

Not sure if this has already been mentioned (as I only flicked through posts, so sorry if it has), but if you mention it to the LABC they may just ask you to fill in a regularisation application. Normally costs price of building notice (between £200-£300) + 10%. I had an issue with this for my NIC assessment when I completed the job but hadnt notified building control (dont ask). In the end they had a winge and then done it as a building notice. Cost me £210, bloke came out tested and inspected, wrote certificate out, job done. I wouldnt worry too much. As already mentioned its down to him and not you. I would phone him and verify all this first as it maybe he has already notified them. Certificates from building control took 2 1/2 weeks to come through on my jobs.

Happy hunting,

Rob

 

[Adam W]

Where does it say you can't use generic forms which you've bought from the wholesaler or even downloaded from the IET website? Provided the work has been done to an acceptable standard, all the inspection and testing done and the appropriate certificates filled in correctly I don't see the problem; as already mentioned anyone can join a scheme after a couple of weeks - having a fancy pad of forms with logos on them and sending them to the right people doesn't make someone a good or (in my eyes) even competent electrician.
For all we know this guy could have been doing sterling work for 20 years, have more qualifications than you can shake a stick at, and just disagree with having to pay through the nose for some scheme provider - if he was a scammer or a cowboy or both I doubt he would have issued any paperwork at all.

As mentioned if there are no apparent problems I see no cause for concern, although I'll happily cast my eye over the certs which have been issued.

 

[eiluj68]

Thanks for your patience guys. I've scanned the certificate as you can see below, having removed all names and addresses first.



It all looks kosher to a non-electrically trained person as myself. I wouldn't have thought to question this if the electrician I saw yesterday hadn't queried the certificate when he saw it. I've had another electrician round to quote tonight and he didn't think we should be too worried, although we definitely didn't get a certificate from building control. He also said that registration with all the various bodies such as NICEIC etc is voluntary and that you can still issue certificates provided you're fully qualified and deemed competent (how do you do that?). This electrician is registered with ELECSA.

 

[Rappid]

Tails are undersized, should be 25mm.
PSCC for a BS1361 Type II is 33KA, where did he get 11KA from?
He's quoted TN-S as 0.85

 

[Rappid]

He's only put down the model number of his MFT not the serial number.

 

[Rappid]

It all looks kosher to a non-electrically trained person as myself. I wouldn't have thought to question this if the electrician I saw yesterday hadn't queried the certificate when he saw it. I've had another electrician round to quote tonight and he didn't think we should be too worried, although we definitely didn't get a certificate from building control. He also said that registration with all the various bodies such as NICEIC etc is voluntary and that you can still issue certificates provided you're fully qualified and deemed competent (how do you do that?). This electrician is registered with ELECSA.

He's right in saying registration with a governing body is optional, but if you still have to notify building control for major works in this case rewire and consumer unit replacement. If the electrician is not part of a scheme, you have to notify building control what work will be carried out before work starts.

 

[not clever]

Installation is new? (more like alteration if he isnt rewiring all the circuits)
TNs Ze 0.85 ohms?
80amp T2 1361 = 11ka?
Max demand 120 ?
(Main switch circuit breaker) 80947-3?
16mm tails ok so long as service fuse is indeed no higher than 80amp (would normaly be upgraded to 25mm on a board change.
No selv or double insulation anywhere in the property?
No barriers or enclosures?

R1+R2 on the lighting circuits, I would have thought they would be higher readings.
No meter serial number

Gave up
But as he has changed the cu & I assume connected all the properties circuits to the new cu, then he has to test & cert all the circuits including the kitchen & boiler.

 

[Des 56]

Nice to see at least one homeowner who has heard of building reg part p, and his responsibility
He is almost unique,most dont know or dont care,

I suppose he is the type who would report himself to the police if he exceeded the speed limit then

Why so much slagging off of the spark,apparently, the job was to the customers satisfaction until this notification issue

The certificate standard ( its about par for the course for its mistakes) I have seen much, much, worse than that

At least he gave a certificate


He may very well be an excellent installer

 

[Dunc]

A PSC of 0.29kA seems a bit low considering the recorded Ze. There's definitely parts of that certificate that aren't filled out correctly but it's been done by someone with a fair understanding of the regs. Have a chat with the guy who did the work and ask him where the certificate from the LABC is as you haven't received it yet. Make your next moved based on the answers he gives to that question.

 

[eiluj68]

Nice to see at least one homeowner who has heard of building reg part p, and his responsibility
He is almost unique,most dont know or dont care,

Actually it's a her in this case :smilewinkgrin:

There's definitely parts of that certificate that aren't filled out correctly but it's been done by someone with a fair understanding of the regs. Have a chat with the guy who did the work and ask him where the certificate from the LABC is as you haven't received it yet. Make your next moved based on the answers he gives to that question.

Thanks for this advice. Having read everyone's replies I think this is the reasonable response to take. There's a chance that he'll suggest that I should have contacted them myself at the time, but let's see.

Thanks to everyone who took the time to offer advice. It's been most useful.

 

[eiluj68]

Ok. We've moved on a bit since my last post.

I spoke with our old plumber whilst on my way to work this morning. He didn't believe that building control needed to be involved and that he'd done around 10 rewires in the local area recently without building control involvement. He said that he sent a copy of the certificate he gave us to NICEIC and that they would have forwarded it onto the local building control office if necessary.

Yesterday I emailed our local building control department. I asked a generic question about electrical rewiring of a domestic property but didn't give them my address as I wanted to keep the query general. I emailed them from work, forgetting that my telephone contact details would be on there :dunce: and they called me a short while ago. The guy I spoke with was pretty helpful and sympathetic to our situation once I explained it. He confirmed that the work should have been Part P certified and that the certificate we received was not suitable for the work that had been carried out. He suggested that we request a Part P certificate from the electrician and also to contact NICEIC to ask them to check their records to see if the electrician is registered with them as had been implied during the earlier phone conversation. I've emailed NICEIC and will wait to hear back from them before contacting the electrician again.

The building control guy said that they wouldn't investigate the work proactively and we were not likely to 'get into trouble' as they had plenty of unauthorised building work to keep them busy. Our problem would be when we come to sell as the buyers solicitor would ask to see the Part P certificate.

If the original electrician is unable to issue a Part P certificate then we would have 3 options,

1. Find a Part P registered electrician prepared to Part P certify the work done by the original electrican (unlikely I think)
2. Request that our local building control department issue a certificate. This would involve them sending someone qualified to check the work done (may involve exposing some of the work currently hidden under floorboards and in walls) and cost £444 inc vat
3. Ignore the lack of Part P certification but be prepared for problems when selling the house in the future (probably in around 5yrs)

Anyone care to comment on the above? :thinking:

 

[Octopus]

So if he's claiming NICEIC registration did he give you his number?

 

[eiluj68]

So if he's claiming NICEIC registration did he give you his number?

He didn't volunteer it, no. I didn't want to spook him (if he is attempting to mislead) by asking for it. At the moment he thinks I'm casually querying the matter because of a conversation with a friend who is also having a rewire at the moment (this is true).

I'll wait for a response from NICEIC before I speak with him again. If they have no record of him I'll catch him out. If they do then all is well and good and I can get him to issue the Part P certificate he should have issued originally.

I'm not particulary worried that the work he's done is dangerous or incorrect because I know he's been working successfully in the local area for many years. He's actually a really nice guy to have around and we would have used him again but for his unreliability on the previous job. I suspect he's been competently working for many years and resents the new regulations and the need to be reassessed for work he's been doing without any issues for the best part of his working life. However, I don't appreciate being lied to (if that is the case) and the trouble this will cause us when we sell. Ironically, my partner has the ability to rewire the electrics but is not qualified to do so. We took the decision to get a properly qualified electrician in for the job to simplify things.

 

[Dunc]

Sounds far too complicated a situation for my liking and no doubt a touch stressful. My gut feeling is he's not a NIC registered contractor. If this is the case and can be proved without a doubt I would get the council to notify the work at a cost of £444 (a properly registered electrician is not allowed to sign off someone else's work so that's out of the question) then persue the electrician for the costs incurred since he has acted fraudulently. It might be the kick up the a**e he needs if he is not, as I suspect, notifying work like the rest of us who do it by the book. An excuse of 'I don't like the new regs' would be unacceptable in my book. Best of luck.

 

[eiluj68]

NICEIC have confirmed that the electrician is not registered with them.

We now have to decide whether or not to invite building control in to assess the work. We'd be happier to have the work properly certified but the cost of doing so, not to mention any additional costs if they deem the work not upto standard, are a worry. We can try and pursue the electrician for costs but I imagine this will be both time-consuming and stressful.

I've emailed building control for more information on the assessment but does anyone know what happens if they deem that the electrical work does not meet regulations? Obviously, whatever is wrong will have to be corrected but will they charge us the £444 more than once?

 

[Knobhead]

Thank you for keeping us informed of things. I was an industrial electrician so most of what’s gone on has never concerned me. I’d recognised how stupid the domestic side of the industry had gone, but not to this extent! It’s bureaucracy gone mad!

I’m sorry I can’t help but from me you have my full support if I can offer it in any way.

 

[Des 56]

eiluj68
I gave a rather abrupt reply earlier.more to do with the pathetic part p situation than anything else
I will however try and give some balance and reason to this one

Because of the complete and almost total lack of enforcement of the part p building reg by either the electrical bodies or building control.it is not a big a problem, if it is indeed a problem to yourself

Firstly, as you have found,building control have neither the skill or the interest in enforcing the requirements

I am registered for this nonesense part p thing,but registration among electricians is not universal by a long way,many registered on schemes couldn't compare for competence with many who are not registered
The scheme membership is a long way away from having competence has their primary concern,if they have concern at all

When you come to sell your property,you may have to tick a box in the home information pack that asks if any notifiable work under part p has been carried out
You will tick,yes,you may well be asked for the part p certificate that you dont posess

Any house sale that has a recent (within 5 years)periodic inspection,will satisfy all but the most demanding of solicitors and buyers and costs as little as perhaps £150 depending obviously on the size of the property

(There are builders out there currently slapping in the wiring on extensions and new builds having no competence,never mind registration)
They then take out a small fee insurance policy to cover the electrical installation and get around it with impunity

The pir would be the logical step and should be carried out by an electrician who is experienced and competent with perhaps the C+G 2391 as evidence of that competence
It is a far better demonstration of competence than relying on a scheme membership only

You may hear that certification is prefered by an Niceic contractor,this is a myth that pervades councils, architects and estate agents etc
You could have a person who has never held a screwdriver in his hand doing your pir, with the office as the unseeing signatures to a sheet of toilet roll as back up

But if safety is also your priority,make sure the scheme member and importantly the person actually doing the pir, is competent and dont rely on that membership alone

If you get a pir of a competent electrician you will more than likely have no problems whatsoever when you sell
You will find your concerns at the moment will become wonder at why you thought there was a problem at all

 

[eiluj68]

eiluj68
...But if safety is also your priority,make sure the scheme member and importantly the person actually doing the pir, is competent and dont rely on that membership alone

If you get a pir of a competent electrician you will more than likely have no problems whatsoever when you sell
You will find your concerns at the moment will become wonder at why you thought there was a problem at all

Thank you. Having been the recipient of so many useful and informative responses on this forum has enabled us to take a more balanced view of the situation.

Whilst I'm very unhappy that the electrician lead us into believing that the certificate he issued complied with current standards, I do understand why he might feel that the new regulations are a waste of time and money for someone with his experience. On the other hand, the consumer needs to be protected against someone with little or no experience/competence. Whether the current system addresses this point is debateable.

I do think that it's important for potential customers to be properly informed and to that end I will probably add a post to our local community forum recommendations board suggesting that people check in advance that the electrical work they have done will be certified properly and that they understand the value of that certification. Just because someone is Part P registered it doesn't follow that they will necessarily do a good job. Similarly, someone who isn't Part P registered can still do a good and safe job. However, there are legal obligations on the householder to ensure that any notifiable electrical work done is correctly certified and if they fail do this there is the potential for problems when a property is sold on, even if the local authority building control are too busy or uninterested in getting involved.

 

[SW1970]

Thank you for providing such informative posts eiluj68. Good luck with your next step.

Folks - on the basis that any domestic client is usually a lay person, unless an electrician specifically says work will not be notified to LABC (even though it is supposed to be), I would wager that they have failed in their duty of care to the customer and should be liable for any costs that arise from that failure to notify. Isn't this a case for lawyers, perhaps after a "this is what I think what are you going to do about it" discussion with the sparks?

 

[JamesBrownLive]

Just what is this 'Part P' certificate that people keep referring to? Is it just an acknowledgement that is sent out by a scheme to confirm that works have been duly registered with LABC?

 

[simonspark]

And I think max allowed Zs's are wrong, as well as what Rappid commented on. And there is something going on with his max measured Zs when compared to the R1+R2 and Ze. But doesn't look too bad. He seems to be a sparky. Just didn't log it with building control. Eiluj68, when you get the next load of works done, get a bloke who will log it with building control and ask him to issue you with a completion cert for the work he does, and register it with the council and a periodic inspection of the works the other bloke. That should cover you. Sort of! did.

 

[simonspark]

Good point JamesBrownLive. I have never seen this mythical Part P Certificate. All I've seen is a piece of paper with my name on it, sent to my customer, from the niceic. I think it says certificate on it somewhere. And something about a 6 year guarantee. But Part P? Don't think so

 

[robskiing]

Good reply from simonspark i would say that would be your best course of action if you are thinking of either extending your house or having a new kitchen bathroom etc at least bonding ,characteristics of your supply would be checked to make sure everything was up to scratch.Armed with a new completion cert that would cover you for future house sales instead of paying labc a shedful of money

 

[JamesBrownLive]

Its probably just me, but..... Those RCD disconnection times seem incorrect, cooker excepted.
I thought the only circuits that were allowed 5s times were those over 32a and distribution circuits (411.3.2.2)?

Cheers

 

[simonspark]

Hang on. There are many errors here. PSSC 0,23 KA? That would mean a Ze of 10 ohms at 230 volts. Nominal voltages of 230 and 240 instead of 400 and 230. All the circuits should be 0.4 disconnection time. And crazy rcd disconnection times. 11.4 ms etc. My meter only goes down to the nearest hundredth of a second. Not thousandth. Or is that just me with me old meter? Calibrated mind you!

 

[simonspark]

And I wager the reference methods are wrong

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Two things I would like to point out.
Firstly, it is the person ordering the work who is responsible for notification, not the person carrying out the work.
Secondly, there is no requirement to test existing circuits when conducting a board change.