P

Phil Thompson

I have a customer who has questioned/insulted my price on completion of work plus extras.

Basically I was asked to wire an electric shower, it's for a rental upstairs flat, I suggested they add a smoke and heat detector in, the board was old bs3036 and I suggested instead of spending on an RCD protected shower board that they go for a new AMD3 board. Hager board with 7 circuits. X1m of 3 colours of 16mm tails.

Escos x3 there already,

Run for shower was almost 20m of 10mm2 T&E, Smoke run was about 17.5m.
2 lengths of 38x19 sticky back trunking used.
Also a cooker connection plate and a pvc surface box.



Extras on the job were as follows:-

Client decided to get new kitchen fitted and required cooker switch and double socket to be moved 1 metre to the left and joiner boarded the wall,
so 1x1g and 1x2g dry liners used though wall had to be tracked to allow them to fit, they supplied the socket face i supplied the cooker switch, also replaced another socket face they supplied, and a water heater switch i supplied,

supplied 1x pvc surface box to replace a dry liner that was sitting surface but unfixed to wall, and reconnected single socket.

put plug top on a fridge,

Connected oven and hob, oven flexed, hob needed 1.5m of 6.0mm t&e

Fitted 5 lights supplied by customer, plus supply 4x Bell GU10 5w lamps,

I had quoted £575-600 originally to his girlfriend and she was happy and as the cooker connection plate was done and 4 of the lights were requested I was looking to go with £600, and out of that £600 I was going to be paying £120 for an eicr for them due to it being a rental, being done by a 3rd party.

I asked for £150 for the rest of the extras, which I thought was pretty cheap.
So £750 total was asked for this evening.

On completion the client tried to say I had quoted them £275 for the original work, of the shower, smokes and consumer unit replacement, I was literally gobsmacked and they said they were thinking it would be about £450 total with the extras.

The guy literally has stated that he wants me to break down everything I did, and he will pay me a fair wage, but that he's not going to have the wool pulled over his eyes.

Though I'm starting to feel I've been set up the more I think about it.


Not sure how to proceed with this, my initial thoughts was just to say look I'll drop to £630 for everything but no eicr. As I won't need to pay that £120 out. Second thought is to just do small claims court.

However I think he's expecting me to break down all materials and labour etc and by sounds of his fair wage comments he's gonna try and reduce my labour to nothing.

Really disgusted to be honest and apologies for the long drawn out post but can't sleep as it's annoyed me that much, any advice & prices from others would be helpful, especially @Risteard if you don't mind, being in NI and able to do eicr directly I'd be interested in know your approx price and to see if I was too expensive or not.

Job layout, Consumer unit at front door, trunking up staircase to loft and through loft to bathroom at far end and shower mounted on stud wall, smoke alarm in small hall just outside bathroom and heat detector along the way between kitchen and living area.
 
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No problem Phil - just to clarify are you asking what I would charge for an EICR or for the full works mentioned including the EICR?
 
Sounds a fair price to be honest. Unfortunately you have a chance here. If a break down of your invoice helps then I would consider doing it maybe? Small claims might be the way forward if he doesn't play ball.
 
Seems fair to me as well, even a bit on the low side? That said, I can't quite follow what you've done and the consequential figure you've come up with. Perhaps your client has the same problem.

If it means you getting paid, I would break down my invoice, although not pricing for each socket etc.

When I do extras or work I'm unable to establish cost, like some kitchen refurbs', where you don't know what's going to be revealed, I quote the customer an hourly rate + materials. Then invoice them for the hours done each day. Perhaps do a breakdown, something like that?
 
Here is my tip for the future:
Dear Mr Tightarse
Nice to meet you earlier and thank you for inviting me to quote for the work you require. Following our discussions, to undertake the following:
1. XXXXX
2. YYYYY
3. ZZZZZ
My price would be ££££
Any additional work not mentioned either today or subsequently will be charged at ££/hour plus any parts supplied by myself. Parts not supplied by myself will not be warranted by me and may incur future costs if they subsequently fail.
Could you please indicate your acceptance of this quotation in the form of a return email.
Your Faithfully
Brighter Sparks.
 
From what I can glean from your description £750 sounds low, but most certainly fair. I would not budge from that price. Write out as @sparksburnout suggested the bill and ask for any balance to be settled. But sadly this all smacks of a similar situation I found myself in. Being set up. I think some people are "professional" welchers on debt and do this knowing exactly what they are doing. In my case I cancelled all charges and just let it go (£600 odd) I just was not prepared to play their mind games. I am getting better at sniffing such customers out.
 
No problem Phil - just to clarify are you asking what I would charge for an EICR or for the full works mentioned including the EICR?

For the full job please @Risteard if you don't mind.

This job was for a friend of a friend, so was verbal agreement, basically I said £250 for shower, and normally £350 for board change, but if they got both I could knock £100 off, and then the smoke and heat detector, so I said price would be £575-600 for everything, on arrival they asked for 4 lights to be put up and ceiling roses taken down(only did 1 light as others had missing parts, and I put a 1g surface box and cooker connection plate on, as cable coming out of wall was too short to suit junction box, that was estimated at 2 full days .

So was going to go with £600 for original works, of which £120 was to go to 3rd party for an EICR, which I would be there to assist on, the rest was done yesterday, 1hr in morning to track wall and join cables so wall could be plasterboarded and tiled on, and a couple of hours last night to fit other 4 lights and do rest of stuff on original post list
 
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I just got a quotation from wholesaler for all materials, at my discount rate, added on 20% mark up for warranty work, 20hrs labour @£25 an hour and £120 for the EICR and total comes to £1012 and change. Almost 35% higher than I requested.

So I'm going to break down the entire bill as suggested and go from there. And see what he says at that.
 
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PS don't let the bar stewards get you down :)
 
£750 is far too cheap, as you have already worked out.

A friend of a friend...so you don't know them then. I'd have treated them as a normal customer, written quote etc and no favours on the rates.

BTW They don't sound like a friend of a friend, they sound like typical landlords!
 
I'm not an expert but I was totting it up in my head as I read through and came to £750 as a conservative figure. So yes he's trying to pull a fast one, but some payment is better than none so sometimes you have to just get as much as you can and leave it behind.
 
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Sorry Phil for the delay getting back to you as have been working nights, but sounds like the best part of a grand's worth of work to me. You definitely haven't overcharged.
 
You cannot issue an eicr for a board change.
Price sounds really low. Just bill them your hours & materials(plus mark up) & hold your ground!
 
Thanks Risteard, got sorted and 3 apologies lol

@bigspark17 the eicr was being done by a 3rd party for the entire flat as it's going to be a rental and had sat empty for a time before the current owners bought it at auction along with 2 commercial premises below and beside it.
 
Just curious Phil, why did EICR go through a 3rd party?
 
Well it didn't as they decided against it for now. I only just got my initial verification passed on Friday there. Start the periodic this Friday. So if they require it later I hopefully should be able to do myself.
 
Unless its diferent in NI, you dont need to do 2395 to be able to do eicr just competant & have correct insurance in place.
You should be doing an eicr pre doing all this work not after. & issuing a new EIC refrenced to the eicr for any new work. What are you doing regarding part p notification?
Do you work for yourself or is this a "on the side job"?
 
I also live in NI and I have suffered the same fate doing a lot of work for someone with several added extras that they must imagine are done for free or I magically pulled them from between my cheeks in an hour. Price is defiantly fair and extras have been done cheap for them, I'd say mark up materials quite a bit on itemized bill and if not small claims court. Do people realise that you have to make a living also
 
Unless its diferent in NI, you dont need to do 2395 to be able to do eicr just competant & have correct insurance in place.
You should be doing an eicr pre doing all this work not after. & issuing a new EIC refrenced to the eicr for any new work. What are you doing regarding part p notification?
Do you work for yourself or is this a "on the side job"?

Double checked this today and as far as I am able to ascertain via college lecturer and online, there is no LABC notification to be completed in NI.

As for the EICR, 1 would be issued, and if and codes those would be addressed and then a new eicr given with no codes on it. Or at least no C1&2 codes on it.

EIC is for new installations or new circuits only as far as I've been instructed anyways.
 
No you defo need to do an EIC for a cu change!
 
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As for the EICR, 1 would be issued, and if and codes those would be addressed and then a new eicr given with no codes on it. Or at least no C1&2 codes on it.

EIC is for new installations or new circuits only as far as I've been instructed anyways.
An Electrical Installation Certificate is for any new electrical installation work. This isn't necessarily an entire electrical installation or new circuits, it can be minor works (although a Minor Electrical Installation Works Certificate might be more appropriate for a single circuit modified). I would issue an EIC for remedial works carried out presuming that multiple circuits were involved in the remedial works. I certainly wouldn't reissue an EICR with codes removed - the EICR they have will be one based on what I found at the time of the inspection. An EIC certifying remedial works should be all that is needed.
 
I will speak to the lecturer again and clarify, but he definitely stated EIC for new installations or new circuits and EICR for a board change.

As you are reporting on the condition of the installation, coding for any issues and if remedied then rectifying and reissue a clear EICR without any codes.

That was what I was also led to believe by the guy who was going to do the EICR initially, and he just does inspection & testing on a daily basis, hasn't worked the tools in years, he does it for a firm that does all the colleges in the country. Though he has pulled the use of escos between meter and CCU, stating that once the main isolator is off those are still live.

That's how he does any for the fella I used to work to before starting on my own.

But will definitely check it out further.
 
As others have said you need to issue an eic for a consumer change you can not put circuit into service if there are issues with them , so for example
There is a cable hanging out of wall with live conducters exposed, you change the consumer unit and then you have effectively made that unsafe cable live and created the danger ,
You should of done a eicr first or a least some basic inspection like check bonding ,insulation resistance , cpc continuity and any damaged accessories before you change the consumer unit
 
As you are reporting on the condition of the installation, coding for any issues and if remedied then rectifying and reissue a clear EICR without any codes.
This is where the issue is. If you have rectified an issue then you need to certify the work you have done (i.e. the remedial work). A Report is just that - a report on the condition of the installation and therefore will not certify the work that you have done and therefore is not the correct document for that.

So if I had an EICR from a periodic inspection of an installation (whether produced by me or someone else) and I was then asked to carry out the remedial works I would issue a certificate for the remedial works. I would not reissue an EICR with the codes removed. The certificate will confirm that the remedial works comply with BS7671 (and therefore show that these parts of the installation are now safe).
 
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see his view when I asked the question today was this

You're requested to replace a consumer unit. In an operational domestic property, to improve safety.

You're not getting paid to come in and do an eicr first.
You are there to do the board change and then provide an eicr to state the reason for producing report as "Due to CCU being updated to current standard."
List any limitations. Which there may be in an existing property, and code any issues. Do all your dead tests and live tests. And at the same time your visual inspection. Broken screw on a socket, cracked faceplate, insufficient csa of a services earth. Code them. Then if the client wishes to have the remedial work carried out then you do an MWC, but you should redo the report as well to show it clear for whatever purpose it has been requested. Generally insurance companies.

He stated numerous times throughout the course today, you can only recommend you can't enforce. If you believe something is seriously dangerous you can only try and implore the client & report it to the HSE if they ignore your advice.

Also an EICR is not as important as an EIC, and that an EIC is for new installations or new circuits, and that you are inferring that they meet all BS7671 current standards of installation and have been inspected at all steps of the installation. Which you can't guarantee in a consumer unit change as you're only seeing connections to the equipment in the installation.
Also you should have no limitations in a new install. Which there can be in an existing building.

There's zero places on an EIC to mention any limitations, which is 1 of the reasons his explanation made sense. Along with the fact you can't state installation method meets BS7671 if you couldn't inspect it along the way.

And without damaging the fabric of the installation or removing kitchen units or appliances which can be on many limitations you cannot prove they do.
You can only report on the condition of the installation based on test results on the day and a visual inspection and code any issues if there are any.

I'm lost now lol as his explanation did make sense if you can follow my poor description of what he said.

But basically he said as you are not altering any circuits in the installation it wasn't an EIC, and that effectively a CCU was equipment but as it was such a major piece of equipment was not suitable for a MWC, and therefore you do an EICR.
 
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see his view when I asked the question today was this

You're requested to replace a consumer unit. In an operational domestic property, to improve safety.

You're not getting paid to come in and do an eicr first.
You do the board change and an eicr to state the reason for producing report as "Due to CCU being updated to current standard."
List any limitations. Which there may be in an existing property, and code any issues. Do all your dead tests and live tests. And at the same time your visual inspection. Broken screw on a socket, cracked faceplate, insufficient csa of a services earth. Code them. Then if the client wishes to have the remedial work carried out then you do an MWC, but you should redo the report as well to show it clear for whatever purpose it has been requested. Generally insurance companies.

He stated numerous times throughout the course today, you can only recommend you can't enforce. If you believe something is seriously dangerous you can only try and implore the client & report it to the HSE if they ignore your advice.

Also an EICR is not as important as an EIC, and that an EIC is for new installations or new circuits, and that you are inferring that they meet all BS7671 current standards of installation and have been inspected at all steps of the installation. Which you can't guarantee in a consumer unit change as you're only seeing connections to the equipment in the installation.
Also you should have no limitations in a new install. Which there can be in an existing building.

There's zero places on an EIC to mention any limitations, which is 1 of the reasons his explanation made sense. Along with the fact you can't state installation method meets BS7671 if you couldn't inspect it along the way.

And without damaging the fabric of the installation or removing kitchen units or appliances which can be on many limitations you cannot prove they do.
You can only report on the condition of the installation based on test results on the day and a visual inspection and code any issues if there are any.

I'm lost now lol as his explanation did make sense if you can follow my poor description of what he said.
 
Also his explanation was that the tick list and test results would certify the change of CCU.
 
But hey. I'm only getting into this as I'm now working on my own and want to do it right. Hence doing the initial verification course and now the periodic. So am open for any advice. Hence why I checked with the tutor today and will have him double check.

As I will be using the reasons given here to do so lol
 
OK, didn't realise we were talking about the replacement of a DB. I thought you were referring to remedial works to an installation.

For the replacement of a DB you must issue an EIC. This certificate in no way relates to the existing installation (except for the comments on existing installation section). Your EIC solely relates to the replacement of the DB. You are verifying that ADS will operate for the circuits you are connecting (to ensure that your DB installation is safe) but you are not certifying the existing installation. You won't be verifying cables being installed in prescribed zones, etc. unless you have installed any cables. So this would be N/A. Your schedule of inspections is again only relating to your installation of the DB as confirmed by your extent of works section.
 
Thanks for that Risteard, I assume that's how niceic require it to be done?

Though I was thinking of doing stroma if I do join a CPS but will decide later in the year or during 2018 what way to go.
 
What would Stroma do for you in Northern Ireland? Napit used to be required for B&Q Kitchen's, but pretty sure that's NICEIC now. AFAIK Ikea also requires NICEIC.

NICEIC Approved Contractor is the main one, it'll allow you to undertake work for Councils and the Housing Executive.

There is ECA and JIB but this are for bigger firms than one man bands.
 
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So are there actually any benefits from being in Niceic?

Is there actually any benefits for being in a cps in NI? Apart from being eligible to do that stuff mentioned above if in the niceic?
 
Any of the part p crowd like Stroma, Napit etc etc is of no use at all.

The only one I'd consider looking at is NICEIC Approved Contractor. I'm not with them, but in Northern Ireland for a one man band it's either them or none.
If no one is specifying it, and you're not losing any work from not being registered I wouldn't bother.

I lose about 2-3 small extensions a year and the odd entertainment licence (basically an EICR for a Pub)
 
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So only need stroma if we end up getting part p then?

Are the extensions and entertainment licence jobs only accepting Niceic?

Is it the same on the mainland? Or do we just get ridden by the niceic monopoly?

Have you been asked to join this SparkSafe thing the ETT are trying to push?
 

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