Pvc T& E don’t use it outdoors

[davesparks]

Of course. And that makes complete sense. But, here's what I ask myself as I look at the electrical industry. Is the UV effect on pvc cable the most pressing issue of safety facing us right now? As you know from my previous posts, I see areas (as I appreciate you do) where there are much more serious issues

Nobody said it was the most pressing issue, and it isnt, but that doesn't mean it can be ignored.

There is nothing to say we must only concern ourselves with one issue at a time, or that we must always focus on the one issue judged to be most pressing.

 

[Mark Wright]

Technically what cable does the Regs say we can use outside without containment because you see plenty of Flex and Hi-tuff but I don't think there in the Regs but manufacturers instructions might say there suitable for outside - do they technically comply?

at OP I have seen T+E outside with little or no deterioration but only very very short runs, long runs T&E outside would probably deteriorate, if T&E became loose and started flapping in the wind it would be damaged Quickly.

 

[LastManOnline]

There are obviously more serious issues yes, but deteriorating insulation is pretty important.

Deteriorating insulation on a visible, sunlight exposed cable certainly poses a potential danger which must never be ignored.However it obviously takes place overtime and gives competent sparks plenty of opportunity to remedy it. However I see it as far easier to remedy rather than (forgive me for repeating myself) a broken neutral,which occurs INSTANTLY and for which (to my knowledge) there are no protective measures been taken currently in any country and carries potential consequences likely to be far more serious than deteriorating pvc exposed to sunlight. Hence my previous point

 

[davesparks]

Technically what cable does the Regs say we can use outside without containment because you see plenty of Flex and Hi-tuff but I don't think there in the Regs but manufacturers instructions might say there suitable for outside - do they technically comply?

at OP I have seen T+E outside with little or no deterioration but only very very short runs, long runs T&E outside would probably deteriorate, if T&E became loose and started flapping in the wind it would be damaged Quickly.

Any cable which the manufacturer states is suitable for exposure to sunlight may be used outside. The regs don't specify cable types.
Yes they do technically comply.

It doesn't matter what you, or anyone else, has seen or not seen. The regs are what they are and not dependant on personal experience.

Personally I have seen T&E which is fine after being outside for many years, I have also seen T&E which is disintegrating after a few years outside. In my experience I have seen most common types of cable installed externally and damaged by exposure to tbe elements.

 

[Lucien Nunes]

There can be significant variation between different manufacturers' products, different batches etc. The problem with using something outside its specs is that you can't predict how it will perform. E.g. one existing T+E might be fine after 25 years and you decide on that basis it's OK, but then the cable you install happens by chance to be less resistant to UV and starts going brittle after 10. Best to avoid the lottery and use materials within their specs.

 

[LastManOnline]

There can be significant variation between different manufacturers' products, different batches etc. The problem with using something outside its specs is that you can't predict how it will perform. E.g. one existing T+E might be fine after 25 years and you decide on that basis it's OK, but then the cable you install happens by chance to be less resistant to UV and starts going brittle after 10. Best to avoid the lottery and use materials within their specs.

There can be significant variation between different manufacturers' products, different batches etc. The problem with using something outside its specs is that you can't predict how it will perform. E.g. one existing T+E might be fine after 25 years and you decide on that basis it's OK, but then the cable you install happens by chance to be less resistant to UV and starts going brittle after 10. Best to avoid the lottery and use materials within their specs.

In housing estate I grew up in (built 1955) you can still see the DSO, s original pvc mains clipped to the facia, s. It may have been just a good batch. Or perhaps the paint helped to protect it?
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Any cable which the manufacturer states is suitable for exposure to sunlight may be used outside. The regs don't specify cable types.
Yes they do technically comply.

It doesn't matter what you, or anyone else, has seen or not seen. The regs are what they are and not dependant on personal experience.

Personally I have seen T&E which is fine after being outside for many years, I have also seen T&E which is disintegrating after a few years outside. In my experience I have seen most common types of cable installed externally and damaged by exposure to tbe elements.

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Any cable which the manufacturer states is suitable for exposure to sunlight may be used outside. The regs don't specify cable types.
Yes they do technically comply.

It doesn't matter what you, or anyone else, has seen or not seen. The regs are what they are and not dependant on personal experience.

Personally I have seen T&E which is fine after being outside for many years, I have also seen T&E which is disintegrating after a few years outside. In my experience I have seen most common types of cable installed externally and damaged by exposure to tbe elements.

"It does, nt matter what you, or anyone else, has seen or not seen. The regs are what they are and not dependent an personal experience". Did someone hack your account Dave?

 

[LastManOnline]

In housing estate I grew up in (built 1955) you can still see the DSO, s original pvc mains clipped to the facia, s. It may have been just a good batch. Or perhaps the paint helped to protect it?
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"It does, nt matter what you, or anyone else, has seen or not seen. The regs are what they are and not dependent an personal experience". Did someone hack your account Dave?

When you wrote that statement you may not have intended it to read as it does.
Of course the regs are in reality largely dependent on experience (someone, s). Observable behaviors/effects are still the main driver behind the creating of new regs. We would, nt have a change in the regs regarding the use of T&E in sunlight if people did, nt react to the observable effects of sunlight on it, would we?
In fact to ignore personal experience would be irresponsible

 

[davesparks]

When you wrote that statement you may not have intended it to read as it does.
Of course the regs are in reality largely dependent on experience (someone, s). Observable behaviors/effects are still the main driver behind the creating of new regs. We would, nt have a change in the regs regarding the use of T&E in sunlight if people did, nt react to the observable effects of sunlight on it, would we?
In fact to ignore personal experience would be irresponsible

What change in the regs regarding T&E in sunlight?

 

[LastManOnline]

What change in the regs regarding T&E in sunlight?

Are you not missing the point here?

 

[DPG]

Are you not missing the point here?

But what change in the regs was made regarding T&E in sunlight?

 

[LastManOnline]

But what change in the regs was made regarding T&E in sunlight?

I assumed from the posts that you in the UK experienced that. Here we got direction via our inspectors that T&E was no longer suitable for use outside without containment. And also I simply took the current thread as an example of how observable events impact on work practices and eventually the regs

 

[DPG]

I assumed from the posts that you in the UK experienced that. Here we got direction via our inspectors that T&E was no longer suitable for use outside without containment. And also I simply took the current thread as an example of how observable events impact on work practices and eventually the regs

Ah right, so your regs allowed it, but then it was removed. I'm surprised that they had such a specific rule in them.

 

[LastManOnline]

Ah right, so your regs allowed it, but then it was removed. I'm surprised that they had such a specific rule in them.

To the best of my knowledge it

Ah right, so your regs allowed it, but then it was removed. I'm surprised that they had such a specific rule in them.

No. I am not aware of a specific rule in the regs (if anyone knows differently correct me). The direction came as I mentioned via an inspector. In reality we did, nt use it much outside anyway. It was always either S. W. A. or NYMJ in suitable pipe. The only time you would see T&E outside was for outside wall lights. And it was only ever exposed when if the light location was not where originally agreed. As mentioned in earlier posts, the only large scale use of pvc/pvc seen outside was via the DNO, s mains. And frankly they still look to me in mint condition

 

[nicebutdim]

I assumed from the posts that you in the UK experienced that. Here we got direction via our inspectors that T&E was no longer suitable for use outside without containment. And also I simply took the current thread as an example of how observable events impact on work practices and eventually the regs

I'm surprised that such direction was necessary as PVC is generally not considered a suitable material for long term exposure to UV light - that's why windows etc are manufactured from UPVC.

Was there ever a time when manufacturers stipulated that PVC sheathed T&E cable was suitable for outdoor use in Ireland or was it simply a convention that no one thought to question?

 

[LastManOnline]

I'm surprised that such direction was necessary as PVC is generally not considered a suitable material for long term exposure to UV light - that's why windows etc are manufactured from UPVC.

Was there ever a time when manufacturers stipulated that PVC sheathed T&E cable was suitable for outdoor use in Ireland or was it simply a convention that no one thought to question?

No. Not to my knowledge. I think in the (rare) occasions when you did see it (unprotected) outside, it was more an aberration. See my previous post.

 

[nicebutdim]

No. Not to my knowledge. I think in the (rare) occasions when you did see it (unprotected) outside, it was more an aberration. See my previous post.

Took me so long to type out a short question, that you'd already posted the answer!