Smart meter/immersion heater issues

[Studioman94]

Hi there,

The off-peak immersion heater in my electric boiler stopped working recently, so I got an electrician round to diagnose and fix. They said it was a faulty immersion heater, so they replaced it last week but it's still not working. They now think it might be an issue with our electricity supply as we got a smart meter fitted around the same time as the boiler issues. The boiler is controlled by a Horstmann E7 Quartz. The timer is still working properly, with the off-peak light coming on between 5 and 7am, but there is no hot water in the morning.

I basically just want to check that having a smart meter fitted could have actually been the cause of the boiler no longer working properly? I don't quite understand why it would but am obviously not an expert, so just want to make sure I'm not being ripped off with all this extra electrical work they're now saying is necessary.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Dartlec]

Hi there,

The off-peak immersion heater in my electric boiler stopped working recently, so I got an electrician round to diagnose and fix. They said it was a faulty immersion heater, so they replaced it last week but it's still not working. They now think it might be an issue with our electricity supply as we got a smart meter fitted around the same time as the boiler issues. The boiler is controlled by a Horstmann E7 Quartz. The timer is still working properly, with the off-peak light coming on between 5 and 7am, but there is no hot water in the morning.

I basically just want to check that having a smart meter fitted could have actually been the cause of the boiler no longer working properly? I don't quite understand why it would but am obviously not an expert, so just want to make sure I'm not being ripped off with all this extra electrical work they're now saying is necessary.

Thanks in advance!

It is certainly possible for a meter change to have messed something up if it was done poorly, though it may depend how things are wired.

Do you have a separate fuse box for things that might be off peak (storage heaters, immersion) etc?

It is fairly simple to test whether an immersion heater has failed (a resistance test across it) so hopefully that showed a fault before they suggested replacing it. Did they replace the whole thing (drain the tank down, etc), or just change the thermostat that plugs in and switches it?

What extra work are they now saying is necessary? If it was a meter problem, then it would be for the meter provider to come out and fix, although they are unfortunately not always that helpful at doing so unless the error is obvious.

From a quick search, the Horstmann Quartz is not connected separately to the meter, it merely turns on at the time when the power will be cheap. The fact the light comes on at the right time suggests that it is still working and switching at the correct time - in which case the issue may well be the connections from that to the immersion heater, which would not be related to the smart meter, but likely to the recent 'immersion' or thermostat change.

 

[Studioman94]

It is certainly possible for a meter change to have messed something up if it was done poorly, though it may depend how things are wired.

Do you have a separate fuse box for things that might be off peak (storage heaters, immersion) etc?

It is fairly simple to test whether an immersion heater has failed (a resistance test across it) so hopefully that showed a fault before they suggested replacing it. Did they replace the whole thing (drain the tank down, etc), or just change the thermostat that plugs in and switches it?

What extra work are they now saying is necessary? If it was a meter problem, then it would be for the meter provider to come out and fix, although they are unfortunately not always that helpful at doing so unless the error is obvious.

From a quick search, the Horstmann Quartz is not connected separately to the meter, it merely turns on at the time when the power will be cheap. The fact the light comes on at the right time suggests that it is still working and switching at the correct time - in which case the issue may well be the connections from that to the immersion heater, which would not be related to the smart meter, but likely to the recent 'immersion' or thermostat change.

Thanks for your reply.

We do not have a separate fuse box - just one for everything.

They replaced the actual heater - drained the tank etc. They say they could tell that the old one was faulty when they removed it.

They're now proposing: "Disconnect and remove Immersion switch and fuse spur, replace breaker on the consumer unit with correct fuse size. run a cable from the feed between the fuse spur supply from the boost and install a seperate new fuse spur to supply the bottom entry immersion heater."

I'm confirming now with them whether they think it was definitely caused by the smart meter fitting - if they say yes then I'm going to speak to my electricity provider and see what they say.

My feeling is that the fitting of a new meter shouldn't affect it because it's not connected to anything else. The timer still works yet the heater does not come on - very frustrating.

 

[littlespark]

Although my first impression is the meter fitter has made a mistake, the E7 quartz timers can fail over time.

I’m surprised the electrician decided it was the heater straight away, rather than the timer as both are fairly easy to diagnose

 

[Dartlec]

Thanks for your reply.

We do not have a separate fuse box - just one for everything.

They replaced the actual heater - drained the tank etc. They say they could tell that the old one was faulty when they removed it.

They're now proposing: "Disconnect and remove Immersion switch and fuse spur, replace breaker on the consumer unit with correct fuse size. run a cable from the feed between the fuse spur supply from the boost and install a seperate new fuse spur to supply the bottom entry immersion heater."

I'm confirming now with them whether they think it was definitely caused by the smart meter fitting - if they say yes then I'm going to speak to my electricity provider and see what they say.

My feeling is that the fitting of a new meter shouldn't affect it because it's not connected to anything else. The timer still works yet the heater does not come on - very frustrating.

OK, it's quite possible that the immersion heater was faulty - especially in hard areas they can have a hard life, though it is normally possible to identify the fault before removing it with a resistance test across it.

If you don't have a separate fuse box then I agree that it seems unlikely to be the cause of issues in this case. The off peak charging is merely based on what time things are being used - and the Quartz timer is there to ensure that the immersion only heats during those hours.

Though it is possible to have Dual Tariff boards, which are all in one, but still have breakers for circuits that are only energised when the meter 'switches'. However, if you had one of these, the Quartz timer would seem not to be necessary.

I don't fully understand their proposal - they seem to be suggesting replacing the timer with two fused spurs, one for the boost (top) element and one for the bottom? That is a common installation method, but only where there is a circuit hard wired to only come on when the meter switches to Off Peak.

Are any of the breakers in your fusebox labelled Off Peak? They will normally have a separate main switch from the other circuits.

Do you know which breaker they are talking about removing and what is incorect about the sizing?

What they suggest may be perfectly sensible and they may not have explained it fully, but it's clear that you don't feel entirely comfortable so it is reasonable to ask them to put a quote in writing with the remedial work and perhaps seek an alternative quote.

If you are unsure about the bottom element, you could ask them to wire it up and energise it from the normal supply perhaps- that would prove that it works.

 

[static zap]

(Egg on face moment would be , find 1 fault and miss another ..as only expecting One --Old equipment will catch you out )
The fact things may not be energised all the time may not be helping.

 

[Dartlec]

(Egg on face moment would be , find 1 fault and miss another ..as only expecting One --Old equipment will catch you out )
The fact things may not be energised all the time may not be helping.

Economy 7 stuff can be a bugger to fault find - most clients don't want you in their cupboard at 1am! One time when neons on switches pays off though. And switching elements to test can also be useful.

 

[Studioman94]

OK, it's quite possible that the immersion heater was faulty - especially in hard areas they can have a hard life, though it is normally possible to identify the fault before removing it with a resistance test across it.

If you don't have a separate fuse box then I agree that it seems unlikely to be the cause of issues in this case. The off peak charging is merely based on what time things are being used - and the Quartz timer is there to ensure that the immersion only heats during those hours.

Though it is possible to have Dual Tariff boards, which are all in one, but still have breakers for circuits that are only energised when the meter 'switches'. However, if you had one of these, the Quartz timer would seem not to be necessary.

I don't fully understand their proposal - they seem to be suggesting replacing the timer with two fused spurs, one for the boost (top) element and one for the bottom? That is a common installation method, but only where there is a circuit hard wired to only come on when the meter switches to Off Peak.

Are any of the breakers in your fusebox labelled Off Peak? They will normally have a separate main switch from the other circuits.

Do you know which breaker they are talking about removing and what is incorect about the sizing?

What they suggest may be perfectly sensible and they may not have explained it fully, but it's clear that you don't feel entirely comfortable so it is reasonable to ask them to put a quote in writing with the remedial work and perhaps seek an alternative quote.

If you are unsure about the bottom element, you could ask them to wire it up and energise it from the normal supply perhaps- that would prove that it works.

None of the breakers are labelled off-peak.

The other thing is we haven't been on an Economy 7 tariff for the whole time I've lived here, so I don't really see why fitting a smart meter would disrupt anything in this way.

They haven't suggested that the timer unit could be the problem, which seems more logical to me, although the boost function still works and the timer light comes on as normal.

I'm going to speak to them further tomorrow and work out what I want to do - thanks so much for your help.

 

[James]

So the immersion heater works when the boost setting is activated?

 

[Studioman94]

So the immersion heater works when the boost setting is activated?

There are two immersion heaters - one for off-peak and one for the boost. The boost one still works as normal.

 

[Dartlec]

OK, the use of off-peak confused me slightly then - if you're not on an economy 7 or economy 10 tariff then there is no 'off peak' as it costs the same whenever it is used. The timer is being used just to limit the time the main (lower) immersion is on to keep running costs down from the sounds of it?

If that is the case then the smart meter is almost certainly a red herring as it would impact everything or nothing, from the description you've given.

Sounds much more likely to be the timer itself, or the cable between the timer and the immersion heater. If the timer, then putting a fused spur in instead would of course work, but without the timed control you currently have.

It should be easy (for the electrician) to check the timer output to see whether it is live when expected on the timer (when the light comes on).

Good luck clarifying things and finding a solution that gives you hot water back!

 

[Avo Mk8]

Looking at the circuit diagram of the Horstmann E7 Quartz timer, it seems the innovative connection of the neon indicator for 'off peak', means just because it's lit does not guarantee there's power on the off-peak Immersion terminal 5. Maybe the NO contact of the timeswitch has failed?

An electrician with test equipment should soon find out what's going on. Might be worth pointing out just because the neon is lit doesn't mean there's power to the immersion.

 

[Wilko]

The other thing is we haven't been on an Economy 7 tariff for the whole time I've lived here, so I don't really see why fitting a smart meter would disrupt anything in this way.

Hi - if you don’t need the off peak function, why not bypass the whole thing and get the hot water running. If you are happy with the service you are getting then that’s fine, but when I undertake to fix something I don’t leave till it’s working. Or you tell me to go .