star delta motor .....extra stop/start....415v abb

[KAS1]

I used to hate to see / work on 415v control circuits especially remote stop/start stations, feel much happier with 24v or 110v control circuits much safer IMO, seen people fault finding on live remote stop/starts with a multi meter and reading 220v to earth on most of the terminals and getting really confused not even thinking that 400/415volts were present lol

 

[Darkwood]

I used to hate to see / work on 415v control circuits especially remote stop/start stations, feel much happier with 24v or 110v control circuits much safer IMO, seen people fault finding on live remote stop/starts with a multi meter and reading 220v to earth on most of the terminals and getting really confused not even thinking that 400/415volts were present lol

Its no easier at 24dc if negative hasn't been grounded... can get allsorts of confusing conflicting readings if your new to it.

 

[silva.foxx]

Learned ex-ridgetile rider

Here's one reg for you EN 60204-1:2006+A1:2008 Electrical equipment of Industrial machines.

"9.1.2 Control circuit voltages
The nominal value of the control voltage shall be consistent with the correct operation of the control circuit. The nominal voltage shall not exceed 277 V when supplied from a transformer."

EN 60204 also specifies that all but very simple control circuits should be supplied from a transformer or isolated DC PSU.

Line - neutral 230V or line - line 400V control voltage can be used where there is only one contactor with no control functions outside its immediate enclosure. (E.g. a simple individual enclosed starter... no external stop/start pushbutton stations)

http://infoplc.net/files/documentacion/seguridad_normativa/infoplc_net_200941458485281.pdf

Whether it is relevant to churches or car hoists is not my concern, but as Darkwood and NBP have guided you toward... repairing a control system by replacing a component like for like on whatever voltage you like is fine as long as it is to original spec... but modifying a control system means you need to fall in line with the relevant standards.

It's also a bit pathetic to say that everything at or above 400vac is law breaking... you may want to re-read your opening rants and tone down your input as it reads un-necessarily aggressive. Be polite, positive and professional to keep it a good place for healthy debate and fun.

.

 

[Knobhead]

Any ungrounded system will cause confusion. Especially when you get an earth fault on the supposed live line.

 

[Darkwood]

Cheers for the pdf Silva..... I had earlier referenced where to find the relevant machine safety standards but wasn't in a position to look up the specific blurb as im working away, you saved me a job when I return home

 

[Engineer54]

Cheers for the pdf Silva..... I had earlier referenced where to find the relevant machine safety standards but wasn't in a position to look up the specific blurb as im working away, you saved me a job when I return home

I am getting the impression you'll still be just bashing your head up against a brick wall here mate!! ...lol!!

 

[chilliwilly]

Learned ex-ridgetile rider

Here's one reg for you EN 60204-1:2006+A1:2008 Electrical equipment of Industrial machines.

"9.1.2 Control circuit voltages
The nominal value of the control voltage shall be consistent with the correct operation of the control circuit. The nominal voltage shall not exceed 277 V when supplied from a transformer."

EN 60204 also specifies that all but very simple control circuits should be supplied from a transformer or isolated DC PSU.

Line - neutral 230V or line - line 400V control voltage can be used where there is only one contactor with no control functions outside its immediate enclosure. (E.g. a simple individual enclosed starter... no external stop/start pushbutton stations)

http://infoplc.net/files/documentacion/seguridad_normativa/infoplc_net_200941458485281.pdf

Whether it is relevant to churches or car hoists is not my concern, but as Darkwood and NBP have guided you toward... repairing a control system by replacing a component like for like on whatever voltage you like is fine as long as it is to original spec... but modifying a control system means you need to fall in line with the relevant standards.

It's also a bit pathetic to say that everything at or above 400vac is law breaking... you may want to re-read your opening rants and tone down your input as it reads un-necessarily aggressive. Be polite, positive and professional to keep it a good place for healthy debate and fun.

.

Thank you for the link, I will read and consider what it states, I am not intending to be aggressive, I am replying to the same egregious tones as the other abrupt posters.

There's only you an darkwood that have shown that you are gents by offering advice and support, and not like the cocky know it all, "that's a fact because I say so because I'm self proffessed" attidudes from some of them on here.

At the end of the day if someone stands on my toes, I will stand on theirs.

In the meantime thank you again for the link.

 

[Knobhead]

Read and consider would indicate you don’t intend to take on board what you have been told. That decision is yours.
Now think on you’re opinions and actions if things go wrong.
You’re attitude to safety is now a matter of record due to this site. You no longer have the recourse of ignorance of the law as a defence.

Sleep well dear child. The demons of the night are yet to wake and haunt you’re dreams. Sleep well.

 

[chilliwilly]

Read and consider would indicate you don’t intend to take on board what you have been told. That decision is yours.
Now think on you’re opinions and actions if things go wrong.[/SI
You’re attitude to safety is now a matter of record due to this site. You no longer have the recourse of ignorance of the law as a defence.



Sleep well dear child. The demons of the night are yet to wake and haunt you’re dreams. Sleep well.

See what I mean?

 

[KAS1]

Not so dangerous though lol

Its no easier at 24dc if negative hasn't been grounded... can get allsorts of confusing conflicting readings if your new to it.

 

[Darkwood]

Chilly meet Tony ......Tony meet Chilly I see a blossoming friendship developing here lol.... :19:

 

[Knobhead]

 

[Darkwood]

The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education!...... Albert Einstein........................................ Everyday is a school day even for the most educated................................................................................ Darkwood!

 

[chilliwilly]

Chilly meet Tony ......Tony meet Chilly I see a blossoming friendship developing here lol.... :19:

Can't wait.

 

[Engineer54]

I don't think the Mod's will allow this potential friendship to have any time to develope to be honest, not going by this last post!! lol!!

 

[Knobhead]

The courts say I’m a danger to myself and anyone I come in contact with. My “shrink” doesn’t agree (he will when he gets out of hospital) he thinks I’m just mis-understood.

CW, I will listen to any reasoned argument if it’s backed up with fact. You’re only “fact” has been based on the economics of getting a contract. “The customer doesn’t want to pay”. If that is the case walk away because if you don’t you will end up in the mire.

Going back to you resurrecting the “Ellison” switch (Ellison are grey with the decal cast in the top picked out in red. Allen West are orange and everything about them fell apart), I would love to see one working in a safe condition. “Safe” being the operative word. They are inherently dangerous due to them being “Dependant Manual Operation”. Did you drop the tank and inspect the contacts? I doubt it. Is it safe for continued operation? Are you prepared to carry the can when it blows up?
I’ve spent 40 years removing / renovating old gear that isn’t deemed safe by the powers that be. I hated taking it out but it had to go. I got a perverse kick out of closing a switch I knew could blow my head off. But I’m weird!

Legislation has stepped in, but not with the punch it should have done. Like it or not you have to abide with that legislation. Otherwise face the consequences. It’s you’re call.

 

[Knobhead]

I was quoted on the front page of one of the most prominent regional newspapers. (Nottingham Evening Post).

“There are laws in this country, we may not agree with them, but we must abide by them.”

 

[chilliwilly]

Good for you.

 

[Darkwood]

Caution Chilly I would Edit your post 65 if I was you such wording or suggestive txt will get you banned!!!

 

[chilliwilly]

The courts say I’m a danger to myself and anyone I come in contact with. My “shrink” doesn’t agree (he will when he gets out of hospital) he thinks I’m just mis-understood.

CW, I will listen to any reasoned argument if it’s backed up with fact. You’re only “fact” has been based on the economics of getting a contract. “The customer doesn’t want to pay”. If that is the case walk away because if you don’t you will end up in the mire.

Going back to you resurrecting the “Ellison” switch (Ellison are grey with the decal cast in the top picked out in red. Allen West are orange and everything about them fell apart), I would love to see one working in a safe condition. “Safe” being the operative word. They are inherently dangerous due to them being “Dependant Manual Operation”. Did you drop the tank and inspect the contacts? I doubt it. Is it safe for continued operation? Are you prepared to carry the can when it blows up?
I’ve spent 40 years removing / renovating old gear that isn’t deemed safe by the powers that be. I hated taking it out but it had to go. I got a perverse kick out of closing a switch I knew could blow my head off. But I’m weird!

Legislation has stepped in, but not with the punch it should have done. Like it or not you have to abide with that legislation. Otherwise face the consequences. It’s you’re call.

All the switch and control gear was painted orange, it was part of complying with the electrical factories act. The eawr doesn't mention about colours of enclosures, so it has been left the same colour.

The resistance starter was refurbed by a drive and rewind specialist who in turn converted the 4 100v motors on the conveyor.

I take it then that you think he should have refused to carry out the refurbishment on the grounds that someone had to manually control it to allow a voltage on the rotor greater than rlv?

They also have a 3kv tandem drive protected by the usual barriers but I suppose your going to tell me it should be disconnected? As the controls are 415v on the pushes and gate switches.

 

[leespeed]

sorted

 

[Darkwood]

Wont ask what in the large adaptable box but now you've extended the control circuit the full safety standards of the machine lay on your shoulders so hopefully it wasn't wired to a older standard just food for thought.

 

[leespeed]

Wont ask what in the large adaptable box but now you've extended the control circuit the full safety standards of the machine lay on your shoulders so hopefully it wasn't wired to a older standard just food for thought.

1 x400/24 transformer 2x 24v relays for the remote stop start circuit

 

[Darkwood]

I gathered from the earlier posts, as you have just adapted a very simple set-up here with a blower for a church organ what you have done is probably ok as the system is unlikely to meet a category level that require a fail safe E-stop relay system as I assume you have just used off the shelf plug and base relays but caution you don't take this experience further with say machinery as you will have to know a lot more than you can blag of a forum regarding risk assessment the use of safety relays etc etc ....

 

[netblindpaul]

Why the additional G/Y cpc's with the SWA's in the pic BTW?

 

[Engineer54]

Why the additional G/Y cpc's with the SWA's in the pic BTW?

Are they SWA even?? lol!!

 

[leespeed]

just earthing the motor frame

 

[Knobhead]

Just why did you feel it necessary to run a separate CPC to the motor, or to anything else for that matter?

The install looks dog rough. No thought to layout at all.

Score 1/10. Only because you say it works.

 

[netblindpaul]

So why add an additional cpc to the motor frame?
I don't follow your train of thought, these cables/wires run straight to the motor?
Are they SWA, they look like from what I can see.
Is the G/Y 6491 type?

If so do the cable manufacturers OK the cable for "moving" loads because normal SWA & 6491 is not suitable for connection to moving loads.
I trust that you have the cable manufacturers OK on this as if it does come under BS7671 then you will need it.
Though it may not come under BS7671, and then...

 

[leespeed]

the cables were already wired to the motor (3core and earth flex ) i just earthed
the frame as the guy who does maintenance on the church is a bit of a meddler

.

as for rough its in a cellar lol ..................tell u what your all a bit over sensitive on this site
i am polish tho

 

[Darkwood]

We are not over sensitive we are professional and that naturally gives way to comments on installs that fall short of our own standards, also remember you have gained a lot of helpful advice since your opening post and put it into practice so try take the criticism with the free help as this too will aid you in future projects

 

[netblindpaul]

So you BONDED the motor frame back to the starter, did you use 6491 type wire?