Time to voice OUR opinion

[Octopus]

So its now less than 1 year to metal CU's and fire retardent cable entries.....

So is this a good idea or not?

I think its a ill thought out requirement and needs to be reconsidered...

So please vote in my poll!

 

[trev]

I think it's bloody ridiculous Clive. I cannot for the life of me understand why the requirement is being put on us and not the manufacturers.
Plus metal CUs usually look crap.

 

[Octopus]

Are you going to vote Trev?

 

[trev]

Are you going to vote Trev?

The poll wasn't there when I posted mate but I just did. I took option 3.

 

[telectrix]

the only thing that needs reviewing is the poor standard of installation. if fitted correctly there's less chance of a fire than a geordie buying a round.LOL.

 

[R G]

the only thing that needs reviewing is the poor standard of installation. if fitted correctly there's less chance of a fire than a geordie buying a round.LOL.

You want to visit Norfolk mate , they have all got short arms and deep pockets here ,

 

[D Skelton]

If the new regs state that metal DBs have to be fitted in domestic installations I will continue to fit 960 degree glow wire tested plastic DBs in domestic installations as it is a very easily justifiable departure. The reason for the five fold increase in 'fusebox' fires isn't down to the material they're made out of its down to the thousands of under trained and under skilled idiots fitting sub-standard products to a sub standard.

Edit: see here for an explanation on how it is an easily justifiable departure from BS 7671:

http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk/electrical-forum-general-electrical-forum/98557-holy-grail-bs7671-amendment-3-plastic.html#post1052649

 

[Pete999]

Absof&&kinlootly correct mate couldn't agree more,

 

[tomspark93]

I don't think metals CU's are the answer. Improving the installation standards and the quality of the products would make a much bigger difference in my opinion. Dual screws for main connections would be the minimum I'd expect.

 

[Adam W]

I don't think this has been thought through enough - it seems to me a few incorrectly installed consumer units have caught fire so the IET have tried to legislate against incompetence by bringing in this reg, with little apparent consideration for the benefits of a correctly installed plastic CU over a correctly installed metal one, such as electrical insulation and resistance to corrosion.

If they're going to insist on metal CUs just in case they're installed incorrectly (to offer increased protection from fire but decreased protection from electric shock in the place you need it most, ie before the protective device) you have to ask "what's next?" Will we see all plastic accessories 'banned' just in case they're installed incorrectly and could start a fire?

 

[trev]

So a CU catches fire because cables haven't been tightened up in a mainly plastic MCB or main switch. To counteract this the bods at the IET bring in a reg to state that they should now be made of metal, but they still contain lots of plastic which will still (potentially) not be nipped up properly thus the arcing and heating can still occur and cause fires.
Sorry but I'm not seeing the logic so as Damian says above I think I'll continue to install plastic ones because my risk assessment says the same as his.

 

[D Skelton]

I still fail to see how they're going to get around metal DBs in domestic TT setups?! Of course an up front s-type should be fitted anyway but this will now need to be within a seperate enclosure before the metal DB, and the enclosure material housing the s-type, will have to be? You guessed it... PLASTIC!

WTF?!?

 

[itselectric]

So the C.U. has to be metal but the DNO can fit plastic cut outs and meters?

 

[Dcf]

Bit of a double edged problem here.
witness the decline in manufacturing standards( mk 80/90s vs today's tat being a prime case study)
coupled with poorly trained installers
result is far more charred lumps of plastic than before
saying that I went to one on Wednesday night that was an old Wylex m/c feeding storage heaters with the main switch burnt to a crisp and the tails joined together in an unholy live neutral Union of melted plastic insulation.nice.thankfully quite rare as well.
as I've said before as an apprentice you never got near the board part of the job as it was a pile of bits that had to be built up with a bit of knowledge.
that was the journeymans bit of the job
once he deemed you competent you might get a wee 4 way to do as a test to see if you were up to it
and woe betide if it was untidy!
now you buy a fully populated board and if you don't know what you are doing it leads to disaster
stop selling populated boards to the untrained and it might be a start rather than making you do all metal.
ill get my torque driver.........

 

[Risteard]

Remember the Reg does not state that the dis board must be metal, but that either it or a cupboard housing it must be non-combustible.

 

[sammyshooter]

Don't forget your cable penetrations into a steel enclosure, I wonder how many people actually carry edging grommet?

I second the general consensus, if installed correctly, where lies the issue?

 

[D Skelton]

Don't forget your cable penetrations into a steel enclosure, I wonder how many people actually carry edging grommet?

I second the general consensus, if installed correctly, where lies the issue?

Can't use grommet strip, that would mean that the fireproof seal of the metal casing would have been broken. The only way around this issue is to use fire proof glands. Either that or normal glands and then a heap of fire foam squirted over the cable entries.

Gonna look well nice in the customer's hallway innit!

 

[VoltzElectrical]

The poll wasn't there when I posted mate but I just did. I took option 3.

Likewise, but before I read Trev's post. Nice to know I'm not the only one.

 

[Marvo]

......but they still contain lots of plastic which will still (potentially) not be nipped up properly thus the arcing and heating can still occur and cause fires.

I'm sure that I read somewhere they've developed a steel hybrid compound made from 80% mild steel and 20% bull5h1t which has great insulating properties and they're going to start making the MCB's and the busbar insulators from it.

I don't understand the requirement in the new amendment, there's no tablet for stupidity and ineptitude, why start accommodating these qualities in the regs.

You could radically reduce the CU fires with a thermal image so wouldn't it be much easier to include thermal imaging with a basic flir camera into the EICR or whatever that test certificate is that you do on installations in the UK.

 

[VoltzElectrical]

New regulations like this are made a mockery of by the lack of the necessity for retrofit upgrades. If the old standards are now deemed dangerous for future installation, then surely by that logic, they need to be brought up to the new standard?

It's the same with alterations and EICRs. How can one part of an installation (to previous regulations) be OK to leave in service, but an addition must meet a new (higher?) standard?

It's double standards, is what it is!

 

[baldsparkies]

I just find it hard to believe that the plastic outer casing of a consumer unit is the primary cause of electrical fires throughout the UK.
Statistics can be generated to suit any change in regulations without any real justification.
Politicians do it all the time, one lot come up with one set of statistics only to be countered by the other mob who will come up with completely different figures.
In my years in the game most heat has been generated by loose connections, and usually its the neutral that's the culprit.
Sometimes its a main switch that overheats again down to poor connections, but the pong is usually a give away before fires develop.
The main offenders that have almost caused timbers to catch are those bloody round ****ty brown JB's that lurk under floorboards with 5 x 2.5 T/E crammed in em right next to a charred dry wooden joist.

 

[rompling]

I think marvo 's idea of thermal image camera used on eic and EICR is a great idea

 

[Redvanman]

I've been installing boards for 30 years and never had a fire so not sure why I should be made to install metal boards in people's houses cos some idiot doesn't know how to tighten terminals correctly.
Personnally I think the manufacturers will just prove their insulated boards meet with the required regulations.
How the hell are you supposed to get the cables into the top of the board if there isn't enough entry holes.
I can see customers being well impressed with 3x3 metal trunking installed in their hall way.

 

[ipf]

So the C.U. has to be metal but the DNO can fit plastic cut outs and meters?

No Electrical Trainee's among them........ a few ex meter readers though..:annoyed:

 

[gutterball]

It's the insides of the boards that is needing improved. Not crappy breakers that split apart when you tighten them or the earth screws that sheered off on the wylex board I fitted the other day.

 

[R G]

Thats my line of thinking as well , the quality of the breakers , main switch and all the internal parts is well below that of the previous decades , double screws would help on the main switch for a start , and decent sized neutral & earth bars and screws would help too , as for the breakers , there must be loads around that haven't been changed on the Electrium recall , the quality of some of theses is dire , leaving the electrician having to be careful what they purchase ..

It seems like a metal casing is now required to allow the inferior quality of these units to continue ....

 

[PEG]

Before this thread descends into one long howl at the moon...There is a "new" minimum standard,to add to the list,and,as Mr.Skelton has mentioned,the leeway in those regs,to not have to adhere. There are usually ways round,what seem like restrictive guidelines,that result a better end.
Government,and governing bodies ideas at solving problems,rarely get a double first...anyone remember the amended firearms legislation? Cheer up lads :bobby:

 

[andyelectric]

I personally would be wary of putting 'the customer asked me not to' as valid reasoning on a risk assessment.

 

[D Skelton]

I personally would be wary of putting 'the customer asked me not to' as valid reasoning on a risk assessment.

No one said to do so.

It is a valid reason however to put down in the section for departures on an electrical installation certificate, along with reference to an attached risk assessment.

 

[davesparks]

I've been installing boards for 30 years and never had a fire so not sure why I should be made to install metal boards in people's houses cos some idiot doesn't know how to tighten terminals correctly.
Personnally I think the manufacturers will just prove their insulated boards meet with the required regulations.
How the hell are you supposed to get the cables into the top of the board if there isn't enough entry holes.
I can see customers being well impressed with 3x3 metal trunking installed in their hall way.

Drill more holes or make the existing ones bigger

 

[ImpededLoop]

I'd imagine that if it does go metal only, the consumer unit manufacturers will start selling units for domestic use with an alternative to standard 20/25mm circular holes.

Either that or some form of decorative trunking that bolts onto their units to accept T+E without looking like a bit of 2x2 galv.

 

[davesparks]

To be honest I can't really see this bothering me, as an apprentice we only ever used metal boards (unless plastic was necessary for TT) and I have carried on the same since then.

 

[ImpededLoop]

To be honest I can't really see this bothering me, as an apprentice we only ever used metal boards (unless plastic was necessary for TT) and I have carried on the same since then.

I've got to agree that in most cases it's not going to make a huge difference. I've not lost any sleep over this one yet!

 

[Octopus]

TBH if the metal CU's do become the norm at the very least the MK units won't be so flimsy!!

 

[TJ Anderson]

It is going to be a negative though. They cost more and are not as adaptable as insulated. On new installs it is no drama but on replacements it is going to be a pain in some situations.

 

[TJ Anderson]

TBH if the metal CU's do become the norm at the very least the MK units won't be so flimsy!!

That's true, MK Sentry Insulated are crap. The Cadbury's Heroes Tub we had over Christmas is of far sturdier construction!

 

[davesparks]

It is going to be a negative though. They cost more and are not as adaptable as insulated. On new installs it is no drama but on replacements it is going to be a pain in some situations.

I've never yet had a problem installing a metal CU as a replacement. What sort of issues are you expecting?

 

[TJ Anderson]

I've never yet had a problem installing a metal CU as a replacement. What sort of issues are you expecting?

Cable entry, metal clad is more restrictive. Have generally always used insulated on domestic and find this new requirement irritating when there is nothing wrong with what we have.

 

[Octopus]

I've never yet had a problem installing a metal CU as a replacement. What sort of issues are you expecting?

According to Tony Cable at Sandown, all entry and exit points will need to be fire retardant!

 

[VoltzElectrical]

According to Tony Cable at Sandown, all entry and exit points will need to be fire retarded!

Like Tony Cable!