Voltage optimisers and lighting

[Sintra]

Done an install a couple of years back in a large building with three large sub switchrooms fed from a common main switchroom.
All lighting throughout the installation is either hf fluorescent or pl. As I say this was installed around 2 years ago with only the odd lamp failure as would be expected.
Recently lamps have been failing more or less daily and the client got us to relamp all fittings around 4 weeks ago which has been done.
On a daily basis there are numerous lamps failing so I called in today to investigate.
First thing I noticed was most of the lamps that are still lit have blackened ends so I tested the voltage at random fittings and the highest voltage I measured was 218V. Checked a couple of the local DB's and again voltage was around 218 - 219V L-N.
Got into the sub switchrooms and noticed that voltage optimisers have been installed that have been set to 380V L-L.
I'm reckoning that these voltage optimisers are causing the lamp failures. Any opinions welcomed.

 

[Richard Burns]

Not sure if PL are HF as well, probably are now but maybe not when installed, for HF I have forgotten how they operate but for ss Blackened ends means the heaters are running for a long time, perhaps there is not enough voltage at times to cause the lamp to strike, so the heaters stay on as the lamp attempts to function. However I would have thought they would be experiencing delays in lamp lighting which would have been mentioned (perhaps).
Then with the heaters on for so long they are evaporating and then failing totally.
I will think more!

 

[Sintra]

Thanks Richard for your reply. There is a delay on quite a few fittings especially the ones with the combined emergency back up. The pl fittings are also high freq. I am trying to get something concrete on this to throw back at the client.

 

[peterb]

voltage optimisers wont save any power with HF ltg anyway, nor with much electronic equipment like PCs nor with A/c plant with Variable speed drives such as most modular kit has these days.... I'm struggling to think what might be left. Id set the optimiser up to 400V which is where it should be and see if the problem goes away.

 

[Knobhead]

380/220V seems far to low unless they have specialist machines. The only time I’ve come across it was on German and Belgian printing presses and bag making machines. The manufacturer refused to guarantee them at any higher voltage, all the lighting and ancillary equipment was 433/250V.

It was a crazy set up with two 1000KVA transformers at different voltages.

How difficult would it be to up the voltage to say 400/230V for a trial period?

 

[Thefailsafe2012]

On the ones we have installed. Changing the optimised output was fairly straightforward, you just needed to alter 3 jumper leads across the top of the unit. However we have only worked with one brand of unit and they probably are likely to differ.

 

[Knobhead]

On the ones we have installed. Changing the optimised output was fairly straightforward, you just needed to alter 3 jumper leads across the top of the unit. However we have only worked with one brand of unit and they probably are likely to differ.

So it would involve a shutdown to alter the jumpers. Pity!

I tried lowering the supply to our plants over several weekends by altering the 33/11KV onload tap changers.
It was a disaster.
Monday morning I was wiping my backside about 6” down from my neck. I don’t mind getting my backside kicked if it’s my fault! It was the bloody accountant that asked the senior engineer about it, we could save money. Senior engineer collard me as I was on shift most weekends, SE then cleared off on holiday and left me as guest of honour at the arse kicking party!

 

[GLENNSPARK]

So it would involve a shutdown to alter the jumpers. Pity!

I tried lowering the supply to our plants over several weekends by altering the 33/11KV onload tap changers.
It was a disaster.
Monday morning I was wiping my backside about 6” down from my neck. I don’t mind getting my backside kicked if it’s my fault! It was the bloody accountant that asked the senior engineer about it, we could save money. Senior engineer collard me as I was on shift most weekends, SE then cleared off on holiday and left me as guest of honour at the arse kicking party!

i remember you telling me about this event tony...

and how stuff all around the plant started arsin about...lol...

 

[Sintra]

I will be back onsite tomorrow and will have access to all the switch rooms. Will have a closer look at the optimisers and maybe get a few pictures of them.

 

[Thefailsafe2012]

So it would involve a shutdown to alter the jumpers. Pity!

I tried lowering the supply to our plants over several weekends by altering the 33/11KV onload tap changers.
It was a disaster.
Monday morning I was wiping my backside about 6” down from my neck. I don’t mind getting my backside kicked if it’s my fault! It was the bloody accountant that asked the senior engineer about it, we could save money. Senior engineer collard me as I was on shift most weekends, SE then cleared off on holiday and left me as guest of honour at the arse kicking party!

Yes, sorry, haha if it is the same type I'm talking about then the procedure is straightforward, the shutdown & effects etc may not be so!

 

[Brightspark2]

We had the same problem with discharge lighting in a warehouse (We didnt install the optimizer). High lamp failures and similiar voltage readings to you. Some manufacturers wouldn't even strike at all, some would.

In the end we turned it into bypass at the client request. It wasnt saving them any money anyway. About 5 years since and no more problems.

 

[Sintra]

I think I will suggest that to the client to either bypass the thing or turn it up a few notches.

 

[Richard Burns]

If you check the manufacturer /label of the ballasts then you should be able to find out the minimum voltage that is permitted at the lamp , if you then measure the actual voltage at the lamp connection points, if this is less than the given value you have your answer.

 

[Marvo]

Can you get info like make and model of the optimisers. I'd start by putting a scope or a tester with a wave analyzer on the output and check the wave shape and RMS value etc. It could be the reduced voltage but it could also be something waveform related.

 

[Sintra]

If you check the manufacturer /label of the ballasts then you should be able to find out the minimum voltage that is permitted at the lamp , if you then measure the actual voltage at the lamp connection points, if this is less than the given value you have your answer.

That's what I was thinking. Will post back tomorrow.

Can you get info like make and model of the optimisers. I'd start by putting a scope or a tester with a wave analyzer on the output and check the wave shape and RMS value etc. It could be the reduced voltage but it could also be something waveform related.

Can get make and model ok. As for a tester I would need to hire one in lol.

 

[Sintra]

I have a few pictures that I will attach later but basically the output of the optimiser is at 383V L-L and the fitting ballast states 240V +/- 6% lol.

 

[Marvo]

Hmmm, maybe it is a voltage issue then. Where I am the standard voltage is 380/220, it's not uncommon to see only 210v at the load but most European items run fine even though it's at the lower end of their voltage tolerance.

With problems like this I'd be tempted to bounce it back to the customer and tell them to sort it out with the designers of the optimisation installation.

 

[Sintra]

Well here are the pics of this stupid box and ballast rating. Looking at the data plate it seems to be set to 5% 380V so turning it up a bit is not an option.

 

[Silly Sausage]

Immediate observation, 240 - 6% > 383 / sqrt 3.

 

[Paul.M]

Anything with a CE mark on it made from 1990 can be run on 220V. If the voltage is below this, it is automatically is going against manufacturers instructions!

Basically the Optimisers are a big dimmer switch, and they always work without any problems lol.

As said above, get the lighting circuits off the Optimisers. End of re-lamping every week. Good luck Sintra.