When did neutral at the light switch become standard practice?

[JimmyS]

Hello all,

I am in the process of buying a house built in 2002 and I am trying to find out when it became standard practice to run neutral to light switches. The reason being I may look at having smart switched installed and having this already in place would make the job so much simpler.

Thanks

 

[Midwest]

Typically a new build would just have pendant lighting points with loop in loop out, i.e. no neutral at switch points.

However, I've just moved into a new build with some pendant lighting points, and some are fed from the switch, i.e. neutral at switch.

For new builds, it all depends on how the quickest, easiest way of wiring things are. In 2002 down lights were thin on the ground for new builds, so guess you might have the former.

Get your self some smart lighting, like Philips Hue, if you like that sort of thing, and you can expensively do what you want.

 

[Wilko]

Hi Jimmy and welcome to the Forum .
As @Midwest has said, it can still vary. There is no regulation to say that neutral must be present at light switches.

 

[Pete999]

Whenever it suited the installer I would imagine. Nothing new just a different slant on things.

 

[Adam W]

Some electricians still refuse to take a neutral to a switch.

 

[LankyWill]

Love a fed switch, no messing about at the pendant ‘arms aching’.

 

[telectrix]

Some electricians still refuse to take a neutral to a switch.

there's always some pillocks about.they probably would not "export "pme to a shed and insist on 25mm tails on a 60A fuse.

 

[Chivers]

I think it depends on the lighting. Much of new stuff is spots or similar without the need to use ceiling Roses so easier to terminate in Switch back boxes, especially if a deeper one.

 

[Pete999]

there's always some pillocks about.they probably would not "export "pme to a shed and insist on 25mm tails on a 60A fuse.

Tel I think I'm missing something here, care to elaborate for an old fart that doesn't get it?

 

[Ian1981]

The regulations do say that consideration of a neutral to switch positions to facilitate electronic switches shall be considered.
Not a shall or must but a consideration only.

 

[telectrix]

was a reply to adam W's post. there's a section of sparks who insist on looping at the lights and not sending a neutral to the switch/es. with the prevelance of downlights these days, it makes sense to loop at the switches. also makes life easier for smart lighting where a N is needed at the switch. but some guys are too stuck in the ways they did it 30 years ago.

 

[Adam W]

there's always some pillocks about.they probably would not "export "pme to a shed and insist on 25mm tails on a 60A fuse.

... And they twist all the CPCs together and put them in 1 bit of sleeving.

 

[Ian1981]

was a reply to adam W's post. there's a section of sparks who insist on looping at the lights and not sending a neutral to the switch/es. with the prevelance of downlights these days, it makes sense to loop at the switches. also makes life easier for smart lighting where a N is needed at the switch. but some guys are too stuck in the ways they did it 30 years ago.

Much easier doing new builds like this.
Mains at the switch that is

 

[Ian1981]

... And they twist all the CPCs together and put them in 1 bit of sleeving.

I always make the apprentices do it again if I see them doing that.
Problem is that the other electricians they work with do it so they always moan and call me a fussy t#at

 

[Rosco]

I always make the apprentices do it again if I see them doing that.
Problem is that the other electricians they work with do it so they always moan and call me a fussy t#at

If they moan I’d say fine then when it comes to testing make them untwist each one without any pliers

 

[Deleted member 26818]

First it was an earth, now they want a neutral as well!!

 

[telectrix]

... And they twist all the CPCs together and put them in 1 bit of sleeving.

that is my biggest pet hate after plumbers.

 

[Octopus]

Hello all,

I am in the process of buying a house built in 2002 and I am trying to find out when it became standard practice to run neutral to light switches. The reason being I may look at having smart switched installed and having this already in place would make the job so much simpler.

Thanks

There is no way to determine this except take every switch off and check ..................

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

... And they twist all the CPCs together and put them in 1 bit of sleeving.

My damn pet hate is that, you get to a a fitting or socket etc and need to re terminate and have to first unravel the damn cpcs..

 

[Octopus]

My damn pet hate is that, you get to a a fitting or socket etc and need to re terminate and have to first unravel the damn cpcs..

Even worse at a CU change when they are all like this ................

 

[Ian1981]

Testing the ring final circuit when both cpc’s at the board are covered by one piece of sleeving and they are twisted together!!!!
Arrrgggggghhhhhhh!!!

More of a eicr issue tho

 

[chris gray]

In any domestic job, wether old or new I always bounce the feed round the switches.
Why would you want to fit any dangly light when it’s 3 plate?

 

[littlespark]

There is no way to determine this except take every switch off and check ................

There is another way. Drop the ceiling rose cover and count the twin-and-earth’s
Scrub that idea. I forgot about the old J701 joint box under the floor trick.
Take off the switches. Not a difficult job but please follow all relevant safety guidelines

Not all smart switches use a neutral. Lightwaverf being one example. So it might not matter

 

[mickfred]

Am about 10 post later .i hate 3mm earth sleeving g on everything from single 1mm to squeezing it in section over a 3core swA . Does my head in buy a few different sizes and fit the correct one not just what you have left in the bag which is always 3mm

 

[Des 56]

Its not all one way trafic
There is also argument that can be made for making a permanent live available at ceiling connections when neutrals at are at switches

 

[JimmyS]

Ah, thank you all for your replies. It seems I will have to wait and see and then decide what is the best plan of action!

 

[telectrix]

time will come when it's standard practice to drop a 3 core/E to the switch. best of both worlds. N at both points.

 

[Andy78]

Even worse at a CU change when they are all like this ................

Had a TPN board to do yesterday like that

 

[telectrix]

i can understand cpc ends being twisted to ensure all are well connected in the terminal (separate sleeving for each) but to twist the lotand put into 1 sleeve is ,IMO, criminal , same with twisting L and N solid core into a terminal. hate it.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Every so often, I find the round JBs with the CPCs round the outside of the box, twisted together.

 

[telectrix]

Every so often, I find the round JBs with the CPCs round the outside of the box, twisted together.

was common practice in the '60s when there were never enough terminals in the JB.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

was common practice in the '60s when there were never enough terminals in the JB.

In the 70s also, even when there were enough terminals.

 

[littlespark]

Not just round JB's... The square ones for lighting too.
Joints made, lid on, then all the cpc's wrapped over the top and twisted together in one of those old twisty type porcelain connectors.
You would have to dismantle the cpc joint to get the lid off to access any other joints.

At least they were sleeved. Maybe in pairs or 3 at a time.... but sleeved.

 

[Adam W]

In the 70s also, even when there were enough terminals.

Probably because it had become common practice in the 60s.
It could well have been shown to the next generation of apprentices as "the way we do it", then continued as "the way I was taught".

 

[Midwest]

Stopped the lids being unscrewed by a DIY'er

 

[Marvo]

At least they were sleeved. Maybe in pairs or 3 at a time.... but sleeved.

Bit pointless actually sleeving them if they're not actually in the enclosure with the circuit conductors...

 

[littlespark]

Possibly, Marvo… but it does distinguish cpc's from just a bit of wire holding the lid on

 

[Mattja]

Neutral to switch definitely makes changing light fittings/locations etc much simpler.

Just so long as a suitable box is put in for the switch... You know, enough room to actually put the switch on without damaging the wires behind it.

Last new build I saw had a 4-gang light switch in the kitchen with a 25mm box, I'd been asked to change it to dimmers... What sort of turd-burgling numpty puts in a 25mm box for a 4-gang switch?!

 

[Octopus]

Last new build I saw had a 4-gang light switch in the kitchen with a 25mm box, I'd been asked to change it to dimmers... What sort of turd-burgling numpty puts in a 25mm box for a 4-gang switch?!

A cheap skate .... unfortunately there are far too many of them about today .....

 

[EbolaSideRoom]

Neutral to switch definitely makes changing light fittings/locations etc much simpler.

Just so long as a suitable box is put in for the switch... You know, enough room to actually put the switch on without damaging the wires behind it.

Last new build I saw had a 4-gang light switch in the kitchen with a 25mm box, I'd been asked to change it to dimmers... What sort of turd-burgling numpty puts in a 25mm box for a 4-gang switch?!

One who’d asked the client if they thought they’d ever want dinmers instead of switches (more than once, mind you) and had been told, quite emphatically, that “of course” they wouldn’t?

 

[Kidsolo]

I am trying to find out when it became standard practice to run neutral to light switches.

Electricians started running active, neutral and earth to the switches when Plate switches became popular. Before that we used architrave switches and you cant fit all those wires behind the architrave. It is easier to only run a single cable to the light fitting when you are usually working off a ladder when connecting it.
It is all a matter of preference and what suits the job.