Different standards different trades

[elevate]

Hello Sparks

I feel a can of worms about to be opened.

I am in the lift trade.
Electricians are responsible up to the lift isolator and we are responsible for all electrical works on our side, which include shaft, motor room and car lighting and what we term small power (sockets in shaft, motor room and on top of lift car)
However very few of us are qualified to BS7671 and especially 2394/5.

The electrical works on the lift side is monitored very closely by the test engineers but the lighting and sockets seem to get overlooked,(not on the test sheets) so we have incorrect wire sizing (we use 0.75 - 1.0mm wire for our trailing flexes) so the car lights and socket are usually wired with this. If the consumer unit (on a refurb) does not have enough ways, the circuits are doubled or worse, and so on.

Small lighting and power is not part of our NVQ even up to level 4 for test engineers.

Having passed 17th edition and recently taken a course on amendment 3, my idea was to take the 2394/5 and have purchased a distance learning course which has put me in a catch 22. To become a test engineer on lifts we need NVQ 4 and the only way to complete NVQ 4 is on site experience and the same is true for 2394/5.
We find a lot of sparks do not like working on top of, or underneath the lift car to fit and test shaft lighting.
So what is the answer ?

 

[ImpededLoop]

There would be electricians willing to do the work, but it probably comes down to time and money. The lift companies are happy for their installation engineers to install the shaft lighting when installing or refurbishing the lift so it saves them time and money instead of employing an electrician.

When the building is tested, the electricians only go as far as the lift isolator, so the lift electrics never get tested.

In reality, there's probably never been a serious incident so the status quo carries on until that time.

On some larger projects the electrical consultant will specify the shaft lighting and power, but it's often left to the lift consultant and contractors on most projects.

I don't think it'll change any time soon - out of sight, out of mind etc...

 

[elevate]

The only times that a sparks is called in, is as you say when a consultant specifies electrical test certs, and most councils also specify test certs, which leaves a lot of lifts unchecked. Considering the amount of exams that both trades have to go through and pay for just to be able to safely carry out a trade, it seems to make a mockery of the whole system.

 

[ImpededLoop]

....it seems to make a mockery of the whole system.

It does indeed.

 

[R G]

If testing of the consumer unit is carried out properly then surely any circuits this supplies must be tested and recorded , this would mean the supply to the lift and any lighting and power , so in effect the consumer unit and supplies away from it are not being tested correctly , this would also include the lift supply ...

As stated when something goes wrong is when it will get noticed , which will be too late then..

To my mind anything within the lift area should be tested along with supply also , have you mentioned anything to anybody with the company at all..

 

[Engineer54]

Can't speak for other projects but i can assure you that all lift rooms and shaft wiring be it installed by the lift company or it's subbies gets checked and tested on our projects. It wouldn't be the first time i've told a lift company to rip out what's been installed in a lift room either.

I don't however wait until the lift room installation has been completed, i tend to go and check what they are up to as the install starts going in. Some of those installs have been nothing less than atrocious, everything literarily thrown in, no containment, no panel cable glands, minimal cable supports etc, etc....

Both the Mech Eng and myself are present during the lift companies testing and commissioning of all our lifts.

 

[Guest125]

If testing of the consumer unit is carried out properly then surely any circuits this supplies must be tested and recorded , this would mean the supply to the lift and any lighting and power , so in effect the consumer unit and supplies away from it are not being tested correctly , this would also include the lift supply ...

As stated when something goes wrong is when it will get noticed , which will be too late then..

To my mind anything within the lift area should be tested along with supply also , have you mentioned anything to anybody with the company at all..

How would you get access to all the areas in a lift shaft? This is a completely acceptable limitation on an EICR.

 

[tazz]

The main construction company would and can over rule any contractor working for them, lift engineers included. A few projects I worked on, the actual lift company paid us to test their own work.
I quite like riding on the top of lifts, with the engineers, testing lights and replacing top shaft smoke detection.

 

[elevate]

As stated, some are monitored, most are not. The fact that the trailing flexes (which supply the car light and power on top of the lift car) are wired through the trailing flexes which are 0.75mm none will get through BS7671, and nearly all sparks are unaware of this when they carry out the electrical works, yet test certs are signed off.I normally ask for the trailers to be doubled up for these circuits, as a precautionary measure.

 

[Plonker 3]

But lift shafts are not coveredby BS7671 if "those aspects of lift installations covered by parts of BS5655 and BS-EN 81-1" reg number 110.2(x).

So does that cover what are mentioning?

 

[tazz]

OP is talking about lift motor rooms and shaft low power and lighting, Dillb

 

[Plonker 3]

But what do the regs that they work too cover in regards to electrical installations.

 

[Plonker 3]

It would appear it does cover electrical installations.


BS 5655-6:2011 Lifts and service lifts. Code of practice for the selection, installation and location of new lifts

 

[tazz]

Usually, electrical contractor supplies 3 phase to lift isolator, then its down to lift regs on motor control and switch gear......a separate supply is feed to cu for local lift motor room, supplying normal sockets, and shaft lights, which is still covered by BS7671

 

[Plonker 3]

But if as in the link I put up, there regs cover the electrical installation then that takes precedence, unless it just says to install it to BS7671.

 

[elevate]

Tazz

Its the circuits on our side of the cu that cannot comply, as stated trailing flexes are 0.75mm for car lights and sockets.

 

[Plonker 3]

But what does BS5655 say about electrical installs?

 

[tazz]

From projects I`ve worked on, we had nothing to do with lift motors or switch gear, that was down to the lift guys....but we were asked to test out shaft lighting, lift room sockets and lighting. Which were all supplied from a separate db board. So can only presume this is were the different Regs come in

 

[elevate]

BS 5655 is for modernised / refurbed lifts.

 

[Plonker 3]

There must be BS standard for lift install though? No matter how old or new,what do those say about electrical installs?