Is my house wired wrongly?

[Chippy_boy]

Hello folks, I hope you don't mind but I've just joined up to ask this question.

I just took two adjacent mains sockets off the wall in my bedroom to do some wallpapering, and having switched off at the consumer unit, I also tested with a multimeter to make doubly sure they were off. One of them was off, but to my enormous surprise, the other was live. That seemed pretty odd since I cannot imagine why they would be on separate circuits. I have two mains circuit switches in the consumer unit, which I had assumed was one for upstairs and the other for downstairs, but clearly not.

That was the first surprise. The other more concerning surprise was that in the live socket, one side of the incoming ring main was live and the other red wire was not.

How can I have a ring main that is live on one side and not live on the other side? Does this indicate there's a break in the ring somewhere and is this a problem? Or am I simply misunderstanding how it works?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

 

[Pete999]

Probably it was not a ring circuit

 

[Chippy_boy]

Probably it was not a ring circuit

Of course that would explain it, but aren't all mains circuits in modern houses ring circuits?

(Thanks for the speedy reply by the way!)

 

[Pete999]

Of course that would explain it, but aren't all mains circuits in modern houses ring circuits?

(Thanks for the speedy reply by the way!)

No the sockets usually are wired as a ring final circuit, some as radials, lighting, cooker shower are radials, what size circuit breaker is protecting the sockets?

 

[davesparks]

Of course that would explain it, but aren't all mains circuits in modern houses ring circuits?

(Thanks for the speedy reply by the way!)

Nope, there could be ring or radial circuits, or both. It's up to the person designing the installation to decide what's best.

As far as your situation goes a multimeter can give misleading readings, you may be measuring a phantom voltage. This is why most multimeters are not suitable for safe isolation and proving dead, you need to use a tester designed for this purpose.
But it may also be that you have a ring circuit with a fault in it or just a radial circuit.

 

[Pete999]

There are certain tests to prove a RFC is actually a ring, you could do yourself a favour, (if you are that concerned) and hire an Electrician to carry out what is called an EICR (Electrical Installation Condition Report) the cost obviously depends on the number of circuits, circa £250:00 just for the testing and paperwork. Where are you located by the way?

 

[Chippy_boy]

Thanks chaps - appreciate the advice. I guess I am not that concerned since there seems to be a pretty reasonable explanation. I had mistakenly thought it must be a ring with a broken leg, if you know what I mean. I hadn't considered there would be other wiring schemas that could explain what I experienced.

Thanks for your help today. FWIW I am in Bristol, btw.

Cheers again

 

[Pete999]

I was born in Bath but now reside in Northampton, to far for a visit.

 

[driverman]

How old the property? Possibly 1 x socket was a storage heater circuit years ago and now converted to a socket, hence being a radial circuit. The other socket could well on a ring. If in doubt get an electrician in.

 

[Deleted member 72666]

That was the first surprise. The other more concerning surprise was that in the live socket, one side of the incoming ring main was live and the other red wire was not.

How did you carry out the test and did you use a multi-meter or a no contact voltage tester (volt stick)?

 

[Chippy_boy]

How old the property? Possibly 1 x socket was a storage heater circuit years ago and now converted to a socket, hence being a radial circuit. The other socket could well on a ring. If in doubt get an electrician in.

Built in 1998 (by Barratts). We still have the (working) storage heater on its own circuit.

How did you carry out the test and did you use a multi-meter or a no contact voltage tester (volt stick)?

Bog standard Fluke multimeter. Is that wrong?

 

[telectrix]

a multimeter can be used to prove continuity and ( with care ) to measure voltage. they are limited though in what they can do and cheap meters have non-approved leads that may not be safe for voltages above 50V.

 

[Chippy_boy]

a multimeter can be used to prove continuity and ( with care ) to measure voltage. they are limited though in what they can do and cheap meters have non-approved leads that may not be safe for voltages above 50V.

Good to know - thanks.

 

[Deleted member 72666]

... So you split the reds and tested both to Neutral or earth, is that correct?

 

[Chippy_boy]

... So you split the reds and tested both to Neutral or earth, is that correct?

Yes.

 

[Deleted member 72666]

It sounds to me then that you have 2 different circuits in this room one of which is likely to be a radial but this can only be confirmed by proper testing.

 

[Chippy_boy]

It sounds to me then that you have 2 different circuits in this room one of which is likely to be a radial but this can only be confirmed by proper testing.

How do you tell if a socket is on a ring with a broken leg, vs on a radial circuit? Neither of my two bedroom sockets can be a simple spur since I don't believe a spur off a spur is allowed (is it?) and both sockets have mains in and mains out.

There's just 2 x 32A mains circuit breakers in the consumer unit, both of which I had thought were ring mains.

 

[SparkyChick]

I've encountered this in a property where I was changing a socket in the kitchen.

What had actually happened was at some point in the past, work had been carried out and the two legs of two rings had been interchanged so there was one leg from each RFC in each of the two MCBs that were supposed to be for upstairs and downstairs.

Nearly got a belt off it.

Circuits were unidentified in the CU, so systematically turned them off until I found the one which isolated the socket I was going to work on (left my socket tester in and listened for the beeps to stop), when it went off, unplugged it and turned all the others back on. Thankfully, I double checked with my AVI and was glad I did

 

[SparkyChick]

How do you tell if a socket is on a ring with a broken leg, vs on a radial circuit? Neither of my two bedroom sockets can be a simple spur since I don't believe a spur off a spur is allowed (is it?) and both sockets have mains in and mains out.

It requires proper test equipment and an experienced spark.

 

[Chippy_boy]

I've encountered this in a property where I was changing a socket in the kitchen.

What had actually happened was at some point in the past, work had been carried out and the two legs of two rings had been interchanged so there was one leg from each RFC in each of the two MCBs that were supposed to be for upstairs and downstairs.

Nearly got a belt off it.

Circuits were unidentified in the CU, so systematically turned them off until I found the one which isolated the socket I was going to work on (left my socket tester in and listened for the beeps to stop), when it went off, unplugged it and turned all the others back on. Thankfully, I double checked with my AVI and was glad I did

That sounds extremely plausible... and a bit worrying, therefore.

 

[telectrix]

That sounds extremely plausible... and a bit worrying, therefore.

if you post your location, one of us may be close enough to pop round and have a gander. usually, most will not charge for an initial assessment of the situation and will be upfront with a quote for any costs before incurring them.

 

[SparkyChick]

That sounds extremely plausible... and a bit worrying, therefore.

What I will add is that before I simply re-connected them correctly, I tested both of them to ensure that both rings were continous (end to end continuity) and there were no interlinks elsewhere. Once reconnected, they both got a basic earth fault loop impedance test (with a sample of the outlets) to ensure that was up to scratch once connected properly.

This is not something you should do without proper test equipment and knowledge.

I agree with @telectrix 's suggestion, give us a clue on your location and see if you can get one of us in to have a look.

 

[Chippy_boy]

What I will add is that before I simply re-connected them correctly, I tested both of them to ensure that both rings were continous (end to end continuity) and there were no interlinks elsewhere. Once reconnected, they both got a basic earth fault loop impedance test (with a sample of the outlets) to ensure that was up to scratch once connected properly.

This is not something you should do without proper test equipment and knowledge.

I agree with @telectrix 's suggestion, give us a clue on your location and see if you can get one of us in to have a look.

Thanks folks - you've all been extremely helpful. I'm in Bristol.

But to be honest, I'm happy to leave it for now. There may or may not be a fault but it's not like the house is going to burn down and I am not planning on doing any more electrical tinkering for a while now. I'm currently out of work, so there's no way I'll be spending a couple of hundred quid on a full electrical QA job, so any visit would be limited to someone saying "yes it's broken" and then me not doing anything about it anyway.

I'll get back in touch sometime in the future if/when my financial position improves ;-)

 

[SparkyChick]

Just to put it into perspective, the fix I did took about an hour (mainly because of the testing) and cost my client less than £50.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Just to put it into perspective, the fix I did took about an hour (mainly because of the testing) and cost my client less than £50.

Thanks again - good to know. As I say, I am not awash with cash at the moment, so not sure if even at this level I want to go ahead, but as a matter of interest, would you come to Bristol (Frampton Cotterell to be precise), or is it too far?

 

[SparkyChick]

When you chuck in bridge tolls, it's a bit too far to make it economically viable for a small job.

Have a look on the site in the 'Find an Electrician' section. If you get stuck, I've got a spark friend just up the road from Bristol who may cover your area.

 

[Cadgey123]

It requires proper test equipment and an experienced spark.

It requires proper test equipment and an experienced spark.

I love how everyone takes it personal on this forum page an instantly hits up the "consult a qualified spark " outlook

 

[Pete999]

I love how everyone takes it personal on this forum page an instantly hits up the "consult a qualified spark " outlook

How do you mean "takes it personal" if the OP isnt experienced or qualified, may be , just may be the best bet would be to hire an Electrician, wouldn't want to tell someone how they think something should be done and the persons ends up killing himself , would we??

 

[SparkyChick]

I love how everyone takes it personal on this forum page an instantly hits up the "consult a qualified spark " outlook

Seeing as you've quoted me, how am I taking it personally by answering the OPs question about how to identify the fault/situation?

You could hand the proper test gear to a newbie... could they solve the mystery? Possibly not. Just as a spark without the right gear probably couldn't solve it. To get to the bottom of this mystery requires two things... the right gear and the experience to use it.

Edit:-

And I agree with @Pete999 , in some situations it's the best advice we can possibly give.

 

[telectrix]

Just to put it into perspective, the fix I did took about an hour (mainly because of the testing) and cost my client less than £50.

agree with you and pete and most other experienced guys/dolls on the forum.

if i need glasses, i go to an optician; i suppose i could buy tesco £1.99 ones, but then i'd not see that motorbike coming and probably kill him. horses for courses. i'm leaving the trade anyway. there's a 5 week neurosurgery course available, courtesy of brains 4 u. at the end of the 5 weeks. i'll be qualified to remove brain tumours. they run a parallel course as well; how to defend a lawsuit, hosted by harold shipman.

 

[Rpa07]

Ive PM'd OP as he's local to me and more local to my sister and she makes cakes! Win Win

 

[Chippy_boy]

When you chuck in bridge tolls, it's a bit too far to make it economically viable for a small job.

Have a look on the site in the 'Find an Electrician' section. If you get stuck, I've got a spark friend just up the road from Bristol who may cover your area.

Thanks - there's a guy I know locally who did the wiring for our kitchen and bathrooms who's very good, so I'll check it out with him at the appropriate time.

Ive PM'd OP as he's local to me and more local to my sister and she makes cakes! Win Win

Rob - got your PM and that's a super generous and kind offer. To be honest, I am really not that bothered about it, I was puzzled more than anything else. In due course I'll get it looked at and will be sure to give you a shout.

And I'd just like to add that as a total newb on here, I've been massively impressed with how friendly and helpful everyone is. Really really impressed.

FWIW I graduated in Physics donkeys years back so I have a pretty good understanding of how electrics "work", but very little understanding of the regs and what tests can be done and what test equipment exists, let alone how to use it. So I haven't found any of the posts even slightly condescending nor patronising. Not a bit. "Get an electrician in" is absolutely the best advice for someone as unqualified as me, I am sure.

 

[Pete999]

agree with you and pete and most other experienced guys/dolls on the forum.

if i need glasses, i go to an optician; i suppose i could buy tesco £1.99 ones, but then i'd not see that motorbike coming and probably kill him. horses for courses. i'm leaving the trade anyway. there's a 5 week neurosurgery course available, courtesy of brains 4 u. at the end of the 5 weeks. i'll be qualified to remove brain tumours. they run a parallel course as well; how to defend a lawsuit, hosted by harold shipman.

I was thinking of re training, let me know what the course is like Tel, could do with a few extra shillings, new phrase for KennyKen "boil in the bag brain surgeon" sounds good.