UK New timed fan isolator and switch... but lighting circuit is via

[Christophyfryfle]

Simple replacement of an old noisy fan. Should have been rip the old one out, put the new one in. Only change is the new fan has a timer overrun which was chosen due to the old tenants leaving it in for so long it eventually went bust. The old fan didn't have a timer.

Anyway... I've got the new fan and isolator in place, went to replace the twin core with 3 core... and that is when I found the rose was replaced with Quickwire a few years ago. I've been given a few (bit Heath Robinson) solutions of sorts on one forum, which if it wasn't in a Part P location would be fine, but mmmm not sure about bathrooms. And on another electrician forum on Reddit, I only got sarcastic comments back, and one solution that would definitely fail inspection. So third time lucky.

Has anyone come up with a solution to this that would be acceptable in regards to Part P? Short summary: 3 core and earth from isolator switch to Quickwire, which is only twin core. Thanks in advance!

 

[Dartlec]

Simple replacement of an old noisy fan. Should have been rip the old one out, put the new one in. Only change is the new fan has a timer overrun which was chosen due to the old tenants leaving it in for so long it eventually went bust. The old fan didn't have a timer.

Anyway... I've got the new fan and isolator in place, went to replace the twin core with 3 core... and that is when I found the rose was replaced with Quickwire a few years ago. I've been given a few (bit Heath Robinson) solutions of sorts on one forum, which if it wasn't in a Part P location would be fine, but mmmm not sure about bathrooms. And on another electrician forum on Reddit, I only got sarcastic comments back, and one solution that would definitely fail inspection. So third time lucky.

Has anyone come up with a solution to this that would be acceptable in regards to Part P? Short summary: 3 core and earth from isolator switch to Quickwire, which is only twin core. Thanks in advance!

Keep meaning to try the Quickwire things out but not got round to it.

However, the Part P location is a slight red herring I think - there are only correct ways to do it, and incorrect ways, whatever the location.

Only way I can see of doing it would be to replace the Quickwire with a Wago or similar box in the ceiling void - or go back to using the ceiling light as a junction box if it has adequate terminals to allow that (many wouldn't).

That is if I've understood your wiring correctly. The 3 core and earth runs from the (existing quickwire) to the isolator, which then runs on to the fan, correct?

 

[timhoward]

I had this once. I'm not saying I solved it the best way, but the way I did it was to not use 3 core.
I put another Quickwire joint box (the grey one one with 4 connections all joined) in-line in the lighting loop, ran a new T+E from this as the permanent supply to the isolator, and ran a double insulated 1 core from the light fitting to the isolator as the switched live. Then 3 core from the isolator to the fan.

 

[Christophyfryfle]

Keep meaning to try the Quickwire things out but not got round to it.

However, the Part P location is a slight red herring I think - there are only correct ways to do it, and incorrect ways, whatever the location.

Only way I can see of doing it would be to replace the Quickwire with a Wago or similar box in the ceiling void - or go back to using the ceiling light as a junction box if it has adequate terminals to allow that (many wouldn't).

That is if I've understood your wiring correctly. The 3 core and earth runs from the (existing quickwire) to the isolator, which then runs on to the fan, correct?

Not quite; it goes: feed from previous luminaire ... Quickwire splitter (which has of course three exits: one to light switch, one to the bathroom light, and one to the previous shower (which had no timer, so was simply twin core through to the fan. Just to clarify there wasn't even an isolator... The original installation must go back at least thirty years so that may have been fine then, but now it wouldn't be - so I have put an isolator in.

So... From the NEW (timer overrun setting) fan going back to the Quickwire, it now goes "Fan... 3 core to fan isolator... 3 core to ... Er... What the ?!?!???!". (I am looking at my left hand that is holding 3 core, in my right hand I am holding a Quickwire splitter).

if the worst comes to the worst I'll rip out the three core and simply take the time delay shutoff out of the equation, though apparently it was doing that which contributed to the sorry state of the old fan. It was condemned before I bought this house.

But I would recommend Quickwire all day long. The time it saves... They do a starter kit - two splitters, two switch&loads, the wire stripping tool and the tool to take wires back out. Practise till you can do all four in a minute..then put it all away, get an old ceiling rose, four pieces of uncut cable, and time yourself. It is revelatory...

 

[Dartlec]

Not quite; it goes: feed from previous luminaire ... Quickwire splitter (which has of course three exits: one to light switch, one to the bathroom light, and one to the previous shower (which had no timer, so was simply twin core through to the fan. Just to clarify there wasn't even an isolator... The original installation must go back at least thirty years so that may have been fine then, but now it wouldn't be - so I have put an isolator in.

So... From the NEW (timer overrun setting) fan going back to the Quickwire, it now goes "Fan... 3 core to fan isolator... 3 core to ... Er... What the ?!?!???!". (I am looking at my left hand that is holding 3 core, in my right hand I am holding a Quickwire splitter).

if the worst comes to the worst I'll rip out the three core and simply take the time delay shutoff out of the equation, though apparently it was doing that which contributed to the sorry state of the old fan. It was condemned before I bought this house.

Any way of doing it while keeping the Quickwire is likely to be more fiddly and use more materials than just replacing it with a Wago box and suitable push fit or lever terminals. That does rely on having enough slack to draw the cables together of course. (I believe you can remove cables from a Quickwire, but I have a vague memory that you need some sort of special plastic 'tool' to do so easily?)

Only other possibly neatish way of doing it would be along the lines of timhoward's suggestion - run a double insulated single length either from the permanent live part of the switch, or from previous light, or other suitable permanent live point - then connect that into a small junction box with your 3 core and the existing feed from the quickwire (that went to the previous fan).

 

[timhoward]

Only other possibly neatish way of doing it would be along the lines of timhoward's suggestion - run a double insulated single length either from the permanent live part of the switch, or from previous light, or other suitable permanent live point - then connect that into a small junction box with your 3 core and the existing feed from the quickwire (that went to the previous fan).

It sounds like a white Quickwire, with feed in, feed out, switch wire, and light fitting.
From the above text, feed in came from previous light, and feed out went to fan (he said shower).
Switch wire must be light switch, and the switched output must be the light fitting (bathroom light).

So it's the switched live he's missing and needs the 1-core for. Not the Permanent Live.

You do need the tool to remove wires from a Quickwire, they send one with every order, and with tool it's a doddle.

 

[Dartlec]

It sounds like a white Quickwire, with feed in, feed out, switch wire, and light fitting.
From the above text, feed in came from previous light, and feed out went to fan (he said shower).
Switch wire must be light switch, and the switched output must be the light fitting (bathroom light).

So it's the switched live he's missing and needs the 1-core for. Not the Permanent Live.

You do need the tool to remove wires from a Quickwire, they send one with every order, and with tool it's a doddle.

Looks like that's right - I'd thought it had two switched outputs.

But if it's as you are describing - then the original fan would have been on permanently, not ever switched? if so no wonder it burnt out.... Or maybe it had a pull cord?

Your original suggestion is likely the only way to do it while keeping the Quickwire then. - Though the single could connect to the switched live of the 3 core cable in this case in a suitable enclosure beside the Quickwire...

I'd still probably prefer to remove it and put a Wago in this case, but it's often a case of what you get used to and are comfortable with.

 

[timhoward]

Yeah - Quickwire have their place, this is one situation where they are a bit of a pain.
Space will be the deciding factor here.
This just needs a T+E from loop out to the isolator and a 1 core for switched live.
In my install the loop out went to the next light hence the need for an extra grey multi-way quickwire...

(As a matter of academic interest I've just opened a Quickwire up with two small flatbladed screwdrivers, so it can be done without their little tool, just needs care.)

 

[Soi disant]

Quickwire emailed me a couple of weeks ago about their new T-connector.

I said to them what about a 4-terminal one, for EM lighting, interlinked smoke alarms and fans...

 

[Christophyfryfle]

Looks like that's right - I'd thought it had two switched outputs.

But if it's as you are describing - then the original fan would have been on permanently, not ever switched? if so no wonder it burnt out.... Or maybe it had a pull cord?

Your original suggestion is likely the only way to do it while keeping the Quickwire then. - Though the single could connect to the switched live of the 3 core cable in this case in a suitable enclosure beside the Quickwire...

I'd still probably prefer to remove it and put a Wago in this case, but it's often a case of what you get used to and are comfortable with.ere used to be a cord, before I bought this place. Patch on ceiling and hole where it used to be. The previous owner had a tenant who broke the cord for the fan, which left the fan on permanently, but didn't tell his landlord (the previous owner). They only found out about this when I booked my viewing and he went to the property to check it before I got there. And found the fan rattling like crazy and no way to turn it off.

 

[Christophyfryfle]

It was stuck on, previous tenant from previous owner snapped the pull cord and didn't tell the landlord. LL only found out about it when the estate agent went round for photos. The fan had been stuck on permanently and the motor was a bit whiffy, but when I moved in the cord had gone and the fan was off the wall. I was told about this prior to completion; this all happened in the last few weeks when the tenant was moving out. I got a little reduction in price out of it. Since I was going to renovate the bathroom anyway it didn't seem like that big a deal. Tak the old gubbins out, pop a new one in, bish bash bosh. Alas...

 

[Christophyfryfle]

Yeah - Quickwire have their place, this is one situation where they are a bit of a pain.
Space will be the deciding factor here.
This just needs a T+E from loop out to the isolator and a 1 core for switched live.
In my install the loop out went to the next light hence the need for an extra grey multi-way quickwire...

(As a matter of academic interest I've just opened a Quickwire up with two small flatbladed screwdrivers, so it can be done without their little tool, just needs care.)

 

[Christophyfryfle]

Simple replacement of an old noisy fan. Should have been rip the old one out, put the new one in. Only change is the new fan has a timer overrun which was chosen due to the old tenants leaving it in for so long it eventually went bust. The old fan didn't have a timer.

Anyway... I've got the new fan and isolator in place, went to replace the twin core with 3 core... and that is when I found the rose was replaced with Quickwire a few years ago. I've been given a few (bit Heath Robinson) solutions of sorts on one forum, which if it wasn't in a Part P location would be fine, but mmmm not sure about bathrooms. And on another electrician forum on Reddit, I only got sarcastic comments back, and one solution that would definitely fail inspection. So third time lucky.

Has anyone come up with a solution to this that would be acceptable in regards to Part P? Short summary: 3 core and earth from isolator switch to Quickwire, which is only twin core. Thanks in advance!

All sorted, thanks to Quickwire who provided a diagram for this exact scenario in a Part P location. If you're registered with ECA, NICEIC and/or ELECSA, this is their Approved Method.

 

[timhoward]

Interesting. Funnily enough their solution is basically the same idea.
I was advocating a 1 core + Earth from light fitting to isolator.
Their solution is using another quickwire splitter on the load side and running a 2 core T+E to isolator, then cutting the one that isn't needed, basically making it a 1-core + Earth again!

That said their solution has some benefits:
-It's probably cheaper to get the quickwire splitter and use T+E that you probably already have rather than acquiring a reel of rarely needed 1 core and earth .
-their solution has the advantage that if you can't get another cable into the light fitting the joint can be external.
-it allows more fun playing with another quickwire!

As a note to anyone else finding this thread in future, both their way and my way has an extra gotcha if the light fitting isn't the last one on the circuit. It's probably easiest to journey to wago-land then, or do it as per my original answer in this thread.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Will have to try the Quickwire's at some point, their solution looks very neat and easy to implement.

 

[Soi disant]

a Part P location.

So that will be anywhere on the consumer’s side of the electricity supply meter and
(a) in or attached to a dwelling;
(b) in the common parts of a building serving one or more dwellings, but excluding power supplies to lifts;
(c) in a building that receives its electricity from a source located within or shared with a dwelling; or
(d) in a garden or in or on land associated with a building where the electricity is from a source located within or shared with a dwelling.

If you're registered with ECA, NICEIC and/or ELECSA, this is their Approved Method.

Are members of those schemes not allowed to think for themselves?

 

[Christophyfryfle]

So that will be anywhere on the consumer’s side of the electricity supply meter and
(a) in or attached to a dwelling;
(b) in the common parts of a building serving one or more dwellings, but excluding power supplies to lifts;
(c) in a building that receives its electricity from a source located within or shared with a dwelling; or
(d) in a garden or in or on land associated with a building where the electricity is from a source located within or shared with a dwelling.



Are members of those schemes not allowed to think for themselves?

I was given various options via the forum - some of which the manufacturers have confirmed, are NOT Part P compliant (they tried various solutions and the only one that was signed off was the one shown in the diagram). On that basis I assume anything other than that, would fail a (properly carried out) inspection. In any case, as we had drummed into us in our course... ALWAYS FOLLOW THE MANUFACTURERS INSTRUCTIONS.

I would never suggest using a different method to one that has been approved for Part P, and I would never ever recommend ignoring the manufacturer's instructions.

 

[UNG]

But I would recommend Quickwire all day long. The time it saves... They do a starter kit - two splitters, two switch&loads, the wire stripping tool and the tool to take wires back out. Practise till you can do all four in a minute..then put it all away, get an old ceiling rose, four pieces of uncut cable, and time yourself. It is revelatory...

So you take the very simple addition of an over run timer fan and a fan isolator you ask 3 forums then Quickwire and you finally get a solution, using Wago's the job could have been done days ago such a time revelation
I've looked at the Quickwire system a few times and I'm not that keen on how restrictive they are they have a 4 cable model but have never adapted it to a multiple cable model for more flexibility, the current add another splitter christmas tree effect multiplies the potential points of failure in a circuit and also I don't think they are at the right price point yet so to carry a stock of them when you are not doing lighting everyday is a lot of dead cash
I think I'll stick to my box of Wago's and Wagoboxes that are a lot more adaptable to problems like this one and cover more cable sizes

 

[Christophyfryfle]

So you take the very simple addition of an over run timer fan and a fan isolator you ask 3 forums then Quickwire and you finally get a solution, using Wago's the job could have been done days ago such a time revelation
I've looked at the Quickwire system a few times and I'm not that keen on how restrictive they are they have a 4 cable model but have never adapted it to a multiple cable model for more flexibility, the current add another splitter christmas tree effect multiplies the potential points of failure in a circuit and also I don't think they are at the right price point yet so to carry a stock of them when you are not doing lighting everyday is a lot of dead cash
I think I'll stick to my box of Wago's and Wagoboxes that are a lot more adaptable to problems like this one and cover more cable sizes

Well, the Quickwire was already in place and I've yet to see the logic of ripping out one system to incorporate another that ostensibly does the same thing. Unnecessary work in my opinion. Still, all done (and with that diagram, took me less than fifteen minutes to do the whole thing). Happy days...

 

[Soi disant]

I was given various options via the forum - some of which the manufacturers have confirmed, are NOT Part P compliant

You were given various options here, some of which the manufacturers have confirmed did not make reasonable provision in the design and installation of electrical installations in order to protect persons operating, maintaining or altering the installations from fire or injury?

(they tried various solutions and the only one that was signed off was the one shown in the diagram).

"Signed off" by who?

I would never suggest using a different method to one that has been approved for Part P

"Approved" by who? Under what approval regime?


Sorry, Christo, but we seem to be going down a rabbit hole of misconceptions and old wives tales here....

 

[UNG]

Well, the Quickwire was already in place and I've yet to see the logic of ripping out one system to incorporate another that ostensibly does the same thing. Unnecessary work in my opinion. Still, all done (and with that diagram, took me less than fifteen minutes to do the whole thing). Happy days...

It didn't take you less than 15 minutes or doesn't all the time spent looking or a workable solution count in the job time

 

[Christophyfryfle]

It didn't take you less than 15 minutes or doesn't all the time spent looking or a workable solution count in the job time

Fair point ... but if people actually answered the original question - what is the solution - instead of petty carping, sarcasm and in some cases, ideas that would never pass a Part P inspection (all of which suggests they didn't know either) - yes it would have been done a few days ago.

 

[Christophyfryfle]

You were given various options here, some of which the manufacturers have confirmed did not make reasonable provision in the design and installation of electrical installations in order to protect persons operating, maintaining or altering the installations from fire or injury?



"Signed off" by who?



"Approved" by who? Under what approval regime?


Sorry, Christo, but we seem to be going down a rabbit hole of misconceptions and old wives tales here....

Signed off by the IET. To standards BS EN6070-22 and BS 5733-MF.

 

[Soi disant]

in some cases, ideas that would never pass a Part P inspection

Let's assume that compliance with BS 7671 has been chosen as the way to comply with Part P.

So any "Part P inspection" would be to determine if the work complied with BS 7671.

What suggested solutions have there been which don't comply with the wiring regulations?

 

[Soi disant]

Signed off by the IET. To standards BS EN6070-22 and BS 5733-MF.

I'm not aware of any process to have designs signed off by the IET, nor that they run a standards compliance test house.

BS EN 60670-22 is the standard for boxes and enclosures for electrical accessories for household and similar fixed electrical installations.

BS 5733 covers general requirements for electrical accessories, and the MF logo was introduced in it as a marking that can be used on accessories to indicate that the accessory doesn't require further inspection, testing or maintenance after installation.

Where has a solution been suggested which does not use items complying with the appropriate standards?

 

[Christophyfryfle]

Let's assume that compliance with BS 7671 has been chosen as the way to comply with Part P.

So any "Part P inspection" would be to determine if the work complied with BS 7671.

What suggested solutions have there been which don't comply with the wiring regulations?

Well, one was to take the isolator out of the loop altogether so it isn't an issue, another was to connect the line to the switch live... Maybe those are acceptable solutions in some instances and not in others. Fair point.

Anyway, it is all done. Tools away happy days.... Sun is shining, and today Mr Drakeford finally allowed pub gardens to reopen, so I'm off for a brewski. Could life get any better...

Thanks for everyone's suggestions, and I hope that diagram is of use to others in a similar predicament. Nobody suggested the same solution as per the diagram, good thing it wasn't an exam question eh lol

 

[UNG]

Thanks for everyone's suggestions, and I hope that diagram is of use to others in a similar predicament. Nobody suggested the same solution as per the diagram, good thing it wasn't an exam question eh lol

And your point is what exactly, I doubt an exam would have a question about using over priced junction boxes

 

[timhoward]

To clarify and address some of the misconceptions I would counter that none of the solutions offered in this post by myself or others would fail any inspection. The day exams start having questions on specific branded products is the day I hang up my screwdriver.

As posted earlier the Quickwire diagram is electrically identical to other solutions posted, it just uses their product. (Twin and Earth with 1 core unused is the same as single core and Earth!)
At the end of the day you needed a switched live from somewhere and whether it comes from the fitting itself or via an extra Quickwire box or enclosed wago or any other maintenance free junction box is irrelevant to any inspection as long as it’s installed correctly. I could probably solve this a different way each day of the week and meet wiring regulations each time.
Any rate, I’m glad you got it sorted.

 

[Christophyfryfle]

To clarify and address some of the misconceptions I would counter that none of the solutions offered in this post by myself or others would fail any inspection. The day exams start having questions on specific branded products is the day I hang up my screwdriver.

As posted earlier the Quickwire diagram is electrically identical to other solutions posted, it just uses their product. (Twin and Earth with 1 core unused is the same as single core and Earth!)
At the end of the day you needed a switched live from somewhere and whether it comes from the fitting itself or via an extra Quickwire box or enclosed wago or any other maintenance free junction box is irrelevant to any inspection as long as it’s installed correctly. I could probably solve this a different way each day of the week and meet wiring regulations each time.
Any rate, I’m glad you got it sorted.

I appreciate that but you're missing the point. It isn't the brand that was the problem, In any other scenario I could quite easily have gone for WAGO or another brand, even an old school junction box (well, actually not. The first problem was (and still is) the location.

All the wiring for the bathroom runs under the floor - not floorboards, floor. And is concreted in in some places, plastered behind six inches of plaster in others. The only bare bits are the ends where there would have been a junction box or a switch the junction box (or ceiling rose, nothing would surprise me) for the bathroom. Whoever came in was presumably told by the then owner they couldn't afford a full rewire so did the best they could in the limited space and limited budget. And went for Quickwire.

Quickwire - and there are others on the market - connect all three wires into their system. Their USP is you don't need to sleeve any cabling, as the gubbins inside does all the wiring. Given the location, previous electrician opted for Quickwire. Which does the job perfectly. As long as the fan doesn't need a timer overrun.new homeowner moved in, wanted the forty year old extractor that has a pull cord on/off ripped out, and a new one with a timer overrun. Didn't even know about the wiring or Quickwire, because they only bought the house recently.

Most of the answers ignored the location issue and offered the usual lazy suggestions - use another brand, chop it up, argue with the homeowner. Which clearly showed they didn't read the original question properly. And what you say about branding is nonsense if you're out on a customers property. You are somewhat governed by what is already in place, what the customer wants and what is practical (and compliant) for that location and installation.

Finally a short sharp word with some of the tradespeople on here, you don't dictatcte to customers what they want. They tell you. If you're a car mechanic and a customer turns up with a Ford that has a faulty clutch, you won't stay long in business if your response is to sniff, and say "well, shouldn't have bought a ford then", or "I can jam in one off a Peugeot see how that works...". If you heard a car mechanic talk like that, you'd take your business elsewhere. They're clearly not as good at their job as they think they are.

 

[timhoward]

Thanks for your reply. I agree I was missing your point though it is now becoming slightly clearer.
I think my confusion was that until the last post you just said "Part P location" and to me that isn't hugely prescriptive term as it applies to a lot of situations. @Soi disant made this point earlier.
I think throughout this thread there has been a misunderstanding about the use of that term, what several of us believed it to mean, and what you intended it to additionally convey?
Also agree that QW are an excellent solution to scenario's where there is difficult and limited access.
Anyway, certainly not trying to start a fight! Apologies for the confusion.

 

[UNG]

I appreciate that but you're missing the point. It isn't the brand that was the problem, In any other scenario I could quite easily have gone for WAGO or another brand, even an old school junction box (well, actually not. The first problem was (and still is) the location.

All the wiring for the bathroom runs under the floor - not floorboards, floor. And is concreted in in some places, plastered behind six inches of plaster in others. The only bare bits are the ends where there would have been a junction box or a switch the junction box (or ceiling rose, nothing would surprise me) for the bathroom. Whoever came in was presumably told by the then owner they couldn't afford a full rewire so did the best they could in the limited space and limited budget. And went for Quickwire.

Quickwire - and there are others on the market - connect all three wires into their system. Their USP is you don't need to sleeve any cabling, as the gubbins inside does all the wiring. Given the location, previous electrician opted for Quickwire. Which does the job perfectly. As long as the fan doesn't need a timer overrun.new homeowner moved in, wanted the forty year old extractor that has a pull cord on/off ripped out, and a new one with a timer overrun. Didn't even know about the wiring or Quickwire, because they only bought the house recently.

Most of the answers ignored the location issue and offered the usual lazy suggestions - use another brand, chop it up, argue with the homeowner. Which clearly showed they didn't read the original question properly. And what you say about branding is nonsense if you're out on a customers property. You are somewhat governed by what is already in place, what the customer wants and what is practical (and compliant) for that location and installation.

Finally a short sharp word with some of the tradespeople on here, you don't dictatcte to customers what they want. They tell you. If you're a car mechanic and a customer turns up with a Ford that has a faulty clutch, you won't stay long in business if your response is to sniff, and say "well, shouldn't have bought a ford then", or "I can jam in one off a Peugeot see how that works...". If you heard a car mechanic talk like that, you'd take your business elsewhere. They're clearly not as good at their job as they think they are.

You are clearly a TROLL and are IMO deliberately trying to provoke an unnecessary response from the members on here with your original question and responses. TBH when you started this thread it sounded like a quickwire employee trying to advertise the product rather than someone trying to solve a problem