Air source heat pump heating issue

[marconi]

Ok. Isolate again and remove the link you just put in. Then switch on.

Re#71 and the image of the ASHP control panel. There is a red light for the 'Programmer live'.

Could you observe and report its state (lit, not lit) when at the programmer you select HW constant and then select HW off at the programmer. I suspect the ASHP is in permanent HW priority mode irrespective of the state of the HW select button.

 

[Themorganator4]

Ok. Isolate again and remove the link you just put in. Then switch on.

Re#71 and the image of the ASHP control panel. There is a red light for the 'Programmer live'.

Could you observe and report its state (lit, not lit) when at the programmer you select HW constant and then select HW off at the programmer. I suspect the ASHP is in permanent HW priority mode irrespective of the state of the HW select button.

The light is on when hw is on constant and on when hw is off

 

[marconi]

I think we are close to the problem. Once again isolate electricity and now remove the white wire from terminal 14 at the ASHP and put a connector on its end to make safe. Turn power back on and check if CH demand starts ASHP.

 

[Themorganator4]

I think we are close to the problem. Once again isolate electricity and now remove the white wire from terminal 14 at the ASHP and put a connector on its end to make safe. Turn power back on and check if CH demand starts ASHP.

Nothing at the heat pump

 

[marconi]

Ok. One last thing for now - maybe something else later.

Turn off electricity. Go to ASHP. Identify relays R2 and R3. Take a photo of where they are located.

Now see if they are plug-in relays. Perhaps try a more convenient relay first to see if when you gently pull it becomes unplugged.

TAke out R2 and take some photos of it including the pins, and observe the position of the contacts if you can see them; then give it a gentle tap to see if it is stuck and observe whether the contacts have moved. Replace the relay R2.

Then do same for R3.

Re-energise and check CH and ASHP starts.

 

[Themorganator4]

Ok. One last thing for now - maybe something else later.

Turn off electricity. Go to ASHP. Identify relays R2 and R3. Take a photo of where they are located.

Now see if they are plug-in relays. Perhaps try a more convenient relay first to see if when you gently pull it becomes unplugged.

TAke out R2 and take some photos of it including the pins, and observe the position of the contacts if you can see them; then give it a gentle tap to see if it is stuck and observe whether the contacts have moved. Replace the relay R2.

Then do same for R3.

Re-energise and check CH and ASHP starts.

All done, nothing appeared to move with the relays, heat pump still not working with CH

 

[marconi]

Ok, last for now as I go to think some more. I have been re-reading your posts and picked up in #1 you said (-sorry missed it before) you had disabled the defrost module - is it still disabled so that everything tried so far has been with it disabled?

 

[Themorganator4]

Ok, last for now as I go to think some more. I have been re-reading your posts and picked up in #1 you said (-sorry missed it before) you had disabled the defrost module - is it still disabled so that everything tried so far has been with it disabled?

Correct, another thing I just noticed is that the heat pump turns on as soon as HW is selected on the programmer and not when the MV is opened

 

[marconi]

I recommend you take a break now. But before, how actually did you disable the DF module?

 

[Themorganator4]

I recommend you take a break now. But before, how actually did you disable the DF module?

I simply unplugged the connectors to the sensor on the coil and removed a wire from the defrost module (pictured) the same problem was present when the DM was connected except it got stuck on defrost mode

 

[marconi]

Are you able to post a photo of the innards of the JB I mentioned?

 

[Themorganator4]

Are you able to post a photo of the innards of the JB I mentioned?

Ah sorry I forgot, it's a bit of a mess (not my making!) I tried to take as many detailed pics as I could but some wires are short and a bit tangled

 

[marconi]

In #53 could you clarify please into which terminals the set of 3 white wires are connected which are to the right of the second earth terminal numbered 7.

 

[Themorganator4]

In #53 could you clarify please into which terminals the set of 3 white wires are connected which are to the right of the second earth terminal numbered 7.

They are connected to 13, 14 and 15

 

[marconi]

Ah sorry I forgot, it's a bit of a mess (not my making!) I tried to take as many detailed pics as I could but some wires are short and a bit tangled

View attachment 52898 View attachment 52899 View attachment 52900 View attachment 52901 View attachment 52902

That shows VERY poor workmanship. I am currently in the home straight of recovery from diarrhea which is why your problem has been such a welcome distraction! It is such a mess - your wiring, I am minded to travel down to you and investigate with you rather than remotely. I me no insult to you, but I have probably gone beyond the limit of 'step-by-step- with you through the EF. So would you like me to visit once I am recovered? Chichester is where you live? I am not far from the Dartford Crossing. I have started so would like to finish. No insult to me if you want it fixed sooner by someone esle. Would you just pay my diesel there and back?

Remember to put the covers all back on again and reset knobs and dials and switches.

 

[Themorganator4]

That shows VERY poor workmanship. I am currently in the home straight of recovery from diarrhea which is why your problem has been such a welcome distraction! It is such a mess - your wiring, I am minded to travel down to you and investigate with you rather than remotely. I me no insult to you, but I have probably gone beyond the limit of 'step-by-step- with you through the EF. So would you like me to visit once I am recovered? Chichester is where you live? I am not far from the Dartford Crossing. I have started so would like to finish. No insult to me if you want it fixed sooner by someone esle. Would you just pay my diesel there and back?

Remember to put the covers all back on again and reset knobs and dials and switches.

Yes I thought that when I took it off the first time! By all means, how much would you want? I live in bognor regis, about 7 miles east of Chichester

 

[marconi]

It's about 200 miles there and back. That is a third of a tank of my Galaxy which costs about £90 to fill up. £30? Please PM me.

 

[Themorganator4]

It's about 200 miles there and back. That is a third of a tank of my Galaxy which costs about £90 to fill up. £30?

That sounds good, if you are sure? I work full time but I am around weekends so when are you able to come down?

 

[marconi]

Studying the smart start controller for the ASHP compressor I have now discovered there is a 3 minutes delay after power up before the controller will respond to a start demand. What this means is that the test we undertook may well not have been conclusive because we should have waited for 3 minutes to elapse before observing whether the compressor is going to start or not.

There is also a delay of 3 minutes after the end of start demand. And a 5 minutes delay if after a start attempt the compressor does not start promptly.

Alas, this means I think the test will have to be repeated and allowing 3 minutes at least to elapse. Are you up for that? Obviously at your convenience. And in the order I presented them this morning.

Comfort yourself that we are probably making quicker progress on your problem than towards BREXIT.



Regards

MArconi

 

[Themorganator4]

Studying the smart start controller for the ASHP compressor I have now discovered there is a 3 minutes delay after power up before the compressor will respond to a start demand. What this means is that the test we undertook may well not have been conclusive because we should have waited for 3 minutes to elapse before observing whether the compressor is going to start or not.

There is also a delay of 3 minutes after the end of start demand. And a 5 minutes delay if after a start attempt the motor does not start promptly.

Alas, this means I think the test will have to be repeated and allowing 3 minutes at least to elapse. Are you up for that? Obviously at your convenience. And in the order I presented them this morning.

Comfort yourself that we are probably making quicker progress on your problem than towards BREXIT.



Regards

MArconi

Of course, so perform the tests again but wait 3 mins?

Even if we hadn't started we would be closer to solving the problem than brexit...

 

[marconi]

Yes, that's right wait over 3 minutes - say 6 minutes each time. Tedious I know but it is protection electronics preserving the life of the motor-compressor in the event of a brief power outage. The most stressful time is when it starts - electrically and mechanically speaking.

 

[Themorganator4]

Yes, that's right wait over 3 minutes - say 6 minutes each time. Tedious I know but it is protection electronics preserving the life of the motor-compressor in the event of a brief power outage. The most stressful time is when it starts - electrically and mechanically speaking.

Ok I'll do that shortly and post back the results
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Interesting, it seems that the water pump now doesn't work, I'll have a fiddle in the junction box to make sure everything is connected

 

[marconi]

It is best to isolate and then slowly, slowly move connectors and wires to discover the fault(s) and not create any new ones in the process. I already have a volunteer to sort out that JB for you.

 

[Themorganator4]

It is best to isolate and then slowly, slowly move connectors and wires to discover the fault(s) and not create any new ones in the process. I already have a volunteer to sort out that JB for you.

By chance whilst I was moving connectors around, another wire slipped out with ease. I assumed that the connection wouldn't be that loose unless another wire was connected there. I was right.

Just waiting to complete test 1 of 2 now
[automerge]1570378816[/automerge]
Ok both tests failed as before. On test 2 just to double check, i am removing the white wire from the bottom not the red and white striped one at the top

 

[marconi]

yes that was right. Ho hum. Let us call it a day. I will PM you about a possible visit next weekend with a fellow EF member. Remember to put covers and screws back.....

Good night to you.

 

[Themorganator4]

yes that was right. Ho hum. Let us call it a day. I will PM you about a possible visit next weekend with a fellow EF member. Remember to put covers and screws back.....

Good night to you.

Thank you very much. Are you sure you don't want anything more than fuel money?

 

[Deleted account]

Thank you very much. Are you sure you don't want anything more than fuel money?

Give him his fuel money and bung Him a bit more and a bottle of his favourite plonk if it makes you feel better.

Marconi top bloke.

 

[marconi]

Yes just diesel. I and my EF colleague Wilko plan to visit next Sat if that is convenient - but we need to confirm with our wives first which we have not been able to do yet. We are helping you because it is a fascinating problem to us. Wilko has all the state-of-the-art digital test kit and skill to use it and I will bring along my trusty AVO8 and Skytronics digital multimeter and voltage indicator stick. Wilko will sort out the snake's wedding inside the JB and I will pass him his tools The only thing we both look forward to from you is real coffee please. Between us with have the wiring accessories which are looking for a good home. Any spares for the ASHP though would be for you to buy.

 

[Themorganator4]

Yes just diesel. I and my EF colleague Wilko plan to visit next Sat if that is convenient - but we need to confirm with our wives first which we have not been able to do yet. We are helping you because it is a fascinating problem to us. Wilko has all the state-of-the-art digital test kit and skill to use it and I will bring along my trusty AVO8 and Skytronics digital multimeter and voltage indicator stick. Wilko will sort out the snake's wedding inside the JB and I will pass him his tools The only thing we both look forward to from you is real coffee please. Between us with have the wiring accessories which are looking for a good home. Any spares for the ASHP though would be for you to buy.

Thank you so much for your help, i am unable to do next Saturday as I'm visiting the in laws. I can do sunday?

I may not be able to buy any spares there and then (depending on cost) but it would be nice to know what the problem is and what needs replacing if needed. I also have an espresso machine so can provide decent coffee hah

 

[marconi]

Here is some 'out loud' thinking of mine on the problem with your installation.

How the CH sub-system is meant to work. If the programmer 'allows' CH to run (ie: ON, advance, timed on), then if the room stat is closed on under set-temp, a signal is sent to the ASHP to 'Go CH'. The ASHP responds by sending a signal out to the 2PMC(CH) which opens. When the 2PMV(CH) has opened, its internal auxiliary switch closes which sends energisation to the water pump. ALL THIS HAPPENS. Note no signal generated yet to run the ASHP.

To begin with the circulating water through the CH circuit is warmed by the Buffer Tank Direct(BTD). The temperature of the BTD is monitored its own tank stat. When its volume of water has cooled such that it no longer can warm the water for the CH circuit, the stat closes and sends a signal to the ASHP to run - THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN. Once the radiators have warmed the room the room stat opens. This does not immediately stop the ASHP because the ASHP has further work to do to reheat the BTD. So this means the 'Go CH' signal is latched in the ASHP and only unlatched once the BTD's stat opens. If Go CH was not latched then ASHP would stop immediately preventing BTD from being reheated. In the logic state of (no space heating required and BTD heating required) the ASHP sends a signal to divert water flow to the spring loaded 3 port valve - valve 3 on page 22 of manual reference. BTD heats up until its state opens: then ASHP shuts down. There is now a ASHP next start delay initiated circa 3 minutes.

If there has been a HW demand, I think it too is latched and only cleared after the HW tank has been heated to temp and the BTD reheated too. This might explain why radiators are being warmed after there has been a HW demand.

So why no operation of the CH sub-system independently of the HW sub-system? When I did a test which removed the priority to HW which is set in the ASHP, - 2PMV(CH) opened and the water pump ran. Nothing else. This indicates that the signal from the BTD is not being generated. Examining the wiring diagram on page 22 of manual reference the source of 230V for this signal is taken from the output of the HW stat (on page 22 upper terminal block - terminal 21 is linked to 18 and 12). This creates the logic that a BTD heat demand from its stat to the ASHP to run can only be generated if HW stat closed(HW GO to ASHP). I suppose during the test the HW tank was at temp so no HW GO which would explain why ASHP did not start.

So if I am on the right lines the installers have followed faithfully the wiring diagram with an error as described on page 22 it would explain why the installation has a problem.

I have a query into Ideal Boilers because I reckon the wiring diagram page 22 has an error. The BTD stat line input should be taken from terminal 14 the input to the room stat.

 

[Themorganator4]

Here is some 'out loud' thinking of mine on the problem with your installation.

How the CH sub-system is meant to work. If the programmer 'allows' CH to run (ie: ON, advance, timed on), then if the room stat is closed on under set-temp, a signal is sent to the ASHP to 'Go CH'. The ASHP responds by sending a signal out to the 2PMC(CH) which opens. When the 2PMV(CH) has opened, its internal auxiliary switch closes which sends energisation to the water pump. ALL THIS HAPPENS. Note no signal generated yet to run the ASHP.

To begin with the circulating water through the CH circuit is warmed by the Buffer Tank Direct(BTD). The temperature of the BTD is monitored its own tank stat. When its volume of water has cooled such that it no longer can warm the water for the CH circuit, the stat closes and sends a signal to the ASHP to run - THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN. Once the radiators have warmed the room the room stat opens. This does not immediately stop the ASHP because the ASHP has further work to do to reheat the BTD. So this means the 'Go CH' signal is latched in the ASHP and only unlatched once the BTD's stat opens. If Go CH was not latched then ASHP would stop immediately preventing BTD from being reheated. In the logic state of (no space heating required and BTD heating required) the ASHP sends a signal to divert water flow to the spring loaded 3 port valve - valve 3 on page 22 of manual reference. BTD heats up until its state opens: then ASHP shuts down. There is now a ASHP next start delay initiated circa 3 minutes.

If there has been a HW demand, I think it too is latched and only cleared after the HW tank has been heated to temp and the BTD reheated too. This might explain why radiators are being warmed after there has been a HW demand.

So why no operation of the CH sub-system independently of the HW sub-system? When I did a test which removed the priority to HW which is set in the ASHP, - 2PMV(CH) opened and the water pump ran. Nothing else. This indicates that the signal from the BTD is not being generated. Examining the wiring diagram on page 22 of manual reference the source of 230V for this signal is taken from the output of the HW stat (on page 22 upper terminal block - terminal 21 is linked to 18 and 12). This creates the logic that a BTD heat demand from its stat to the ASHP to run can only be generated if HW stat closed(HW GO to ASHP). I suppose during the test the HW tank was at temp so no HW GO which would explain why ASHP did not start.

So if I am on the right lines the installers have followed faithfully the wiring diagram with an error as described on page 22 it would explain why the installation has a problem.

I have a query into Ideal Boilers because I reckon the wiring diagram page 22 has an error. The BTD stat line input should be taken from terminal 14 the input to the room stat.

That makes sense (as much as it can with my layman brain)

The HW works fine, rads only heat up if HW is on, ASHP is on and CH is on (on the programmer)

 

[DPG]

Full marks to Marconi for the work he's doing on this one. Especially if the wiring diagram does indeed have that error!

 

[Themorganator4]

Full marks to Marconi for the work he's doing on this one. Especially if the wiring diagram does indeed have that error!

It's much appreciated

 

[marconi]

I have technical queries in with Ideal and Dantherm(Calorex) the makers of the ASHP in which I question the correctness of the wiring diagram on page 22 - but I am 95% certain I am right that there is an error.

What I would like you to try before Wilko and I visit on Sunday (toa tbc) is to do a further test run if you have the time and inclination. Not a problem though if you cannot - I will do it when I visit on Sun.

First switch off power and check dead. Go to ASHP and gain access to the terminal block. Remove the white wire from TB15 and make safe in a connector.

Using a short length of wire make a link between TB15 and TB9.

Turn Room stat down to lowest setting.

At programmer select HW off and CH constant.

Switch on electricity. Wait 5 minutes. Nothing should have run up including the water pump.

Now turn Room stat up to full. Wait at least 6 minutes. Does the water pump start? Does the ASHP start? Do the rads get warm?

End of test. Switch off electricity.

Remove link wire and reconnect white wire to TB15. Replace covers and screws and reset room stat and programmer.

 

[Themorganator4]

I have technical queries in with Ideal and Dantherm(Calorex) the makers of the ASHP in which I question the correctness of the wiring diagram on page 22 - but I am 95% certain I am right that there is an error.

What I would like you to try before Wilko and I visit on Sunday (toa tbc) is to do a further test run if you have the time and inclination. Not a problem though if you cannot - I will do it when I visit on Sun.

First switch off power and check dead. Go to ASHP and gain access to the terminal block. Remove the white wire from TB15 and make safe in a connector.

Using a short length of wire make a link between TB15 and TB9.

Turn Room stat down to lowest setting.

At programmer select HW off and CH constant.

Switch on electricity. Wait 5 minutes. Nothing should have run up including the water pump.

Now turn Room stat up to full. Wait at least 6 minutes. Does the water pump start? Does the ASHP start? Do the rads get warm?

End of test. Switch off electricity.

Remove link wire and reconnect white wire to TB15. Replace covers and screws and reset room stat and programmer.

I cannot do the test until Thursday evening or Friday as I am away in exmouth for a work event. As soon as i am back on thursday i will do the test, possibly Friday if I don't get back until late.

I appreciate all your help

 

[Themorganator4]

I have technical queries in with Ideal and Dantherm(Calorex) the makers of the ASHP in which I question the correctness of the wiring diagram on page 22 - but I am 95% certain I am right that there is an error.

What I would like you to try before Wilko and I visit on Sunday (toa tbc) is to do a further test run if you have the time and inclination. Not a problem though if you cannot - I will do it when I visit on Sun.

First switch off power and check dead. Go to ASHP and gain access to the terminal block. Remove the white wire from TB15 and make safe in a connector.

Using a short length of wire make a link between TB15 and TB9.

Turn Room stat down to lowest setting.

At programmer select HW off and CH constant.

Switch on electricity. Wait 5 minutes. Nothing should have run up including the water pump.

Now turn Room stat up to full. Wait at least 6 minutes. Does the water pump start? Does the ASHP start? Do the rads get warm?

End of test. Switch off electricity.

Remove link wire and reconnect white wire to TB15. Replace covers and screws and reset room stat and programmer.

Tried the above, rads got very slightly warm but this could be from water in buffer tank, water pump worked when turning room stat to max. Nothing worked when turned to min. ASHP did not come on at all during test

 

[marconi]

Thank you. I have just spoken with Wilko and we are planning our journey down to you. Will be in touch.

 

[marconi]

And just to confirm - you did all this with the defrost sensor and a wire from the defro module disconnected? I suspect this has changed the ASHP logic because I was expecting the ASHP to run up. I will do the same test when I visit and with defro in service.

 

[Themorganator4]

And just to confirm - you did all this with the defrost sensor and a wire from the defro module disconnected? I suspect this has changed the ASHP logic because I was expecting the ASHP to run up. I will do the same test when I visit and with defro in service.

That's correct however defrost mode is faulty:

When defrost mode is connected then the pump will go into defrost when there is little or no ice on the coil and if temps are below approx 10.c. when it goes on the fan stops and the pump goes in reverse (like its meant to) for approx 5 mins, the fan then turns back on but the refrigerant gets stuck in reverse meaning that the ASHP is actually extracting heat from the house. I disconnected it as a quick fix and it seems to work (fan still stops for 5 mins but refrigerant is not reversed)

 

[marconi]

My study of the ASHP wiring diagram (difficult because it is so small) indicates that the NO output of the DEFROST module, the one you have disconnected, is required to energise two relays R6 and R9. The CH signal to R5, which controls the start of the compressor, passes through the normally open contacts of R6 and R9; which means for a CH signal demand path to R5 these relays need to be energised by the NO output of the DEFROST module going live to 230V; at the moment this cannot happen because you have disconnected the NO output to R6 and R9.

The ASHP DEFROST mode is is actually the CH mode but with the radiators bypassed by the 3 port diverter valve - see page 21. What is meant to happen is that on entering DEF mode, the 2PMV(CH) opens, the water pumps starts, the diverter valve is energised and water circulates through the Buffer Tank and ASHP heat exchanger. At this stage there is no demand from the Buffer Tank stat to start the ASHP. When the water in the Buffer Tank has cooled below the set temp of its stat because it has been circulating as just described, the BT stat closes generating a start demand to run the compressor to produce hot air which warms the circulating water going through the heat exchanger which at the same time defrosts the ASHP because there is no cooling from the fan which is off in DEF mode- you will see steam being produced from the ASHP for about 5 minutes.

The problem I believe you have is that the CH mode at the moment derives its 230V live from the output of the HW stat and the ASHP is set to give priority to the HW sub-system. What this means is that once the HW demand (ie: HW stat closed) is satisfied 'cos water is above its set point (60C), the HW stat opens removing 230V from the relay logic of the CH sub-system which needs it to generate an ASHP start demand via the Buffer Tank stat. So the ASHP in DEFRO mode remains stuck 'waiting' for the Buffer Tank tank stat to produce a 230V live output to create a start demand which it cannot do even though its contacts have closed because the HW stat is open.

This is the wiring fault I believe exists on page 22 which my test was a simulation of correcting. But I had forgotton ( :-( ) that you had disconnected the DEFRO NO output.

I am almost dead certain (98% now) if you reconnected the DEFRO module and did the last test again the ASHP would start.