Covering electrical wiring for lighting circuits with loft insulation ?

[Zeno]

When totally enclosed by deep insulation a cable has to be derated by 50%, so 1mm T&E is not quite in on a 6A 60898 type B, but but in bungalows and dormer houses 2.5 T&E becomes derated to 13.5A which is a real problem.


We sign to say that our work meets all the Building regulations, when we notify.


The insulating companies dont sign to say their work meets all building regulations, so they are not bothered.


The plumbers and heating guys also dont sign to say their work meets any Building Regulations.


Who agreed to all this for Electricians, the Schemes, they dong give a ****.

 

[chris murphy]

"Hello GLENNSPARK",

Please accept My Apology for keep missing the second `N` in GLENNSPARK - I try to ENSURE that I don`t make an Error in someone`s Name or Nom de Plume - But I seem to have missed out the second `N` in yours more often than I typed it !

"Sorry Mate" - I won`t make that mistake again - I did look back on My Posts to You to see if I could Edit the `N` into your Nom de Plume - But the majority I could NOT Edit.

Do You happen to know at what stage [ Days Old ?] the Posts become NOT available to Edit ??

Regards,


Chris

 

[Amp David]

Hello Chris Murphy,

No offence has been taken mate, didn't mean for it to sound that way

 

[chris murphy]

Hello Chris Murphy,

No offence has been taken mate, didn't mean for it to sound that way

"Hello Amp David",

Thank You for replying - As I stated in My Messages to You I did NOT want You to think My Original Question was NOT Genuine.

And "Thanks for your Help" once again.

Regards,

Chris

 

[chris murphy]

When totally enclosed by deep insulation a cable has to be derated by 50%, so 1mm T&E is not quite in on a 6A 60898 type B, but but in bungalows and dormer houses 2.5 T&E becomes derated to 13.5A which is a real problem.


We sign to say that our work meets all the Building regulations, when we notify.


The insulating companies dont sign to say their work meets all building regulations, so they are not bothered.


The plumbers and heating guys also dont sign to say their work meets any Building Regulations.


Who agreed to all this for Electricians, the Schemes, they dong give a ****.

"Hello Zeno",

With regard to your comment that Plumbers and Heating Engineers don`t have to `Sign` that their Work meets Building Regulations etc. :

PLUMBERS:

Almost ALL Works in Plumbing HAVE TO meet the relevant Building Regulations - Self Employed Plumbers either have to be Members of Approved Competent Persons Schemes for BOTH the Water Regulations [Used to be Water Bylaws] AND for the Building Regulations aspects relating to Plumbing / Drainage / Hygiene and then Record / Notify and Certify their Plumbing & Drainage [inc. obviously Waste Water] - OR Their Work HAS TO BE Notified to both the Building Control Department of the Local Authority AND the relevant Water Authority - These Organisations will then Inspect / Supervise compulsary Testing of the Works - Pressure Testing of Copper Pipework and Air Testing of Waste Water / Soil and Drainage - As well as ENSURING that ALL of the Works adhere to EVERY relevant Regulation.

The involvement of the Building Control Department and the Water Authority is Chargeable - and can Cost quite a lot of Money ! - Paid usually by the Client - BUT - NOT something that the Client would want to find out `After the Works` !

ONLY very basic `Like for Like Swaps` are exempt from these requirements - And even then ONLY If there has to be NO Upgrading of Pipework etc. to adhere to New Regulations.


HEATING ENGINEERS:


ALL Heating Engineers who Install Gas Appliances and Pipework HAVE TO be Registered with GasSafe who have taken over from CORGI as the National Gas Installer Registration Organisation.

In order to be Registered they HAVE TO be Assessed on ALL of the aspects of Gas Work that they carry out - This is a 5 Yearly process and they also HAVE TO renew their Registration on a Yearly basis.

There are also GasSafe Inspections carried out on Sample Jobs by GasSafe Inspectors to ensure that Gas Installers are carrying out their work correctly and adhering to ALL relevant Regulations.

Heating Engineers carry out Safety Inspections / Landlords Inspections on Gas Appliances and Pipework and Issue Certificates for ALL of the Gas Appliances that they Install - as well as Notifying these Gas Appliances to GasSafe on the basis that the Heating Engineer is of `An Approved Class of Person` who can Inspect and Certify Gas Installations and Appliances.

This Notification / Certification is INSTEAD OF Inspections by the Building Control Department - And can ONLY be carried out by REGISTERED GAS INSTALLERS - MANY of who are Heating Engineers.

I have deliberately commented on Self Employed Plumbers and Heating Engineers here - because obviously those working for Companies would have the Companies Notifying and Certifying the Works / Contracts.

Just a few comments to allay the impression that `Plumbers and Heating Engineers do NOT `Sign For` their Work`.

I am NOT trying to be argumentive here Zeno - just trying to show - Briefly - The Plumber & Heating Engineers Viewpoint.

Regards,

Chris - Heating - Plumbing and Gas Installer

 

[Zeno]

Hi Chris, yes I agree that what you have described is what should happen, I was commenting on what is really happening.

My comments about Gas Safe were that registering a job with Gas Safe, did not mean you were registering that the whole job that you have done, meets the Building Regulations.
Also the number of plumbers in schemes or notifying direct is very low, which is not surprising when they can look at what the Electrical Part P guys have to put up with.
.

LABC have issues with it as well,
“LABC has issues about the current gas safety regime, namely that its notifications do not ensure Building Regulation compliance.”

“Traders sending in notifications are not necessarily competent or part of a recognised Competent Persons Scheme (CPS), therefore, notifications cannot automatically be accepted by Building Control. “

-------------------------------

“However, LABC believes the Part P schemes would work better if electricity, like gas, required mandatory membership of a scheme.”

Well the Schemes would agree with that lucrative idea, but being a member of a Scheme does not provide Competence.

 

[chris murphy]

"Hello Zeno",

This reply is NOT meant to be pedantic.

There is a comment in your Post that I cannot agree with:


“Traders sending in notifications are not necessarily competent or part of a recognised Competent Persons Scheme (CPS), therefore, notifications cannot automatically be accepted by Building Control. “



My disagreement is this:

ONLY Members of a recognised Competent Persons scheme can Notify their Work - VIA whichever scheme they are a Member of - And ALL of the schemes are Recognised by the Building Control Departments - Country Wide - It was the Department of Communities and Local Government that Licensed all of the various Competent Persons Schemes.

If Tradesmen are NOT registered with one of the Approved Competent Persons schemes relating to their Trade - Which would now be Unusual - I would have thought - Because these Schemes are the ONLY Way to be able to Notify your Work and Certify that the Work DOES comply with all relevant Building Regulations - They would then have to Apply in advance of carrying out the Works [For a lot of Building Works] - Often having to Submit Drawings and a Schedule of Plumbing / Heating / Sanitaryware & Taps etc. - to the Building Control Department of the Local Authority - Although sometimes this is done by a Building Contractor or Surveyor / Architect - Or the Client.

If done by a Person who is NOT Specifying the Plumbing Materials, Heating Equipment - Sanitaryware - Taps etc. then the Tradesman will obviously have prior involvement in Itemising these Materials for submission to Building Control.

Building Control will then be involved in ALL Aspects of the Works and Charge accordingly - These Charges can be a VERY Expensive `Additional Cost` - The Charges can DEFINITELY be the difference in whether a `Non Registered with a Competent Persons Scheme` Tradesman Wins a Job - OR Whether the Tradesman who IS Registered with a Competent Persons Scheme and CAN Notify their Works - resulting in the Client being Sent Certificates of Compliance with the Building Regulations - Which as You know are often required when People Sell their Properties - Even more so since the Scrapping of the Home Information Packs.


Your comment about People Notifying Works which do NOT comply with all the relevant Building Regulations WILL obviously have some validity - BUT - As Members of the relevant Competent Persons Schemes they ARE Signing Off their Works as `Fully Compliant` - As in any Works that are carried out and then `Self Inspected` / Notified by the Tradesperson themselves there WILL be Unscrupulous People who will `Cut Corners` when working.

When a GasSafe Registered Installer Notifies a Gas Appliance they state / certify verbally that the Gas Appliance has been Installed in FULL Compliance with the Manufacturers Instructions - Gas Safety Regulations AND the relevant Building Regulations which apply to the Installation of that category / Type of Gas Appliance.

Also I would be very interested to know where You found the Information that Very Few Plumbers are Members of Competent Persons Schemes - NOT that I don`t believe what You stated - I would just like to find out about that - could you perhaps send Me some reference details in a Private Message - IF You would rather NOT Post those details - "Thanks".

"Thanks for Your Reply Zeno".


Chris

 

[Zeno]

Hi Chris, my information about compliance with building regulations comes from LABC.
The original has moved but a copy is here, Article

LABC has issues about the current gas safety regime, namely that its notifications do not ensure Building Regulation compliance. Traders sending in notifications are not necessarily competent or part of a recognised Competent Persons Scheme (CPS), therefore, notifications cannot automatically be accepted by Building Control. However, LABC believes the Part P schemes would work better if electricity, like gas, required mandatory membership of a scheme.

 

[chris murphy]

Hi Chris, my information about compliance with building regulations comes from LABC.
The original has moved but a copy is here, Article

LABC has issues about the current gas safety regime, namely that its notifications do not ensure Building Regulation compliance. Traders sending in notifications are not necessarily competent or part of a recognised Competent Persons Scheme (CPS), therefore, notifications cannot automatically be accepted by Building Control. However, LABC believes the Part P schemes would work better if electricity, like gas, required mandatory membership of a scheme.

"Hello Zeno",

Thanks for the link to the Article - I wrote a detailed reply to You on Sunday Night - BUT when I went to Submit it I LOST IT ! - This KEEPS happening on here [to Me] - I should Copy & Paste My Posts BEFORE Submitting them - but as this only seems to happen on this Forum [to Me] - I don`t always remember.

When I DO Copy & Paste My Text elsewhere the Post Submits with no problems - on the occassions when I forget to do that - I LOSE the Post !

As it was 23:05 on Sunday Night when this happened - I cannot bring Myself to Re-Compose and Re-Type the Message to You that took Me about 20 - 30 Minutes [ 2 Finger Typist] - I will Post an Answer during the Week.

I hope that you will understand - losing the `detailed` Post has irritated Me - I will wait until I am Calm and try to remember what I wrote.


I have Posted this Zeno so that You could see that I had NOT Ignored Your Reply to Me.


Regards,


Chris

 

[chris murphy]

"Hello Zeno",

Thanks for the link to the Article - I wrote a detailed reply to You on Sunday Night - BUT when I went to Submit it I LOST IT ! - This KEEPS happening on here [to Me] - I should Copy & Paste My Posts BEFORE Submitting them - but as this only seems to happen on this Forum [to Me] - I don`t always remember.

When I DO Copy & Paste My Text elsewhere the Post Submits with no problems - on the occasions when I forget to do that - I LOSE the Post !

As it was 23:05 on Sunday Night when this happened - I cannot bring Myself to Re-Compose and Re-Type the Message to You that took Me about 20 - 30 Minutes [ 2 Finger Typist] - I will Post an Answer during the Week.

I hope that you will understand - losing the `detailed` Post has irritated Me - I will wait until I am Calm and try to remember what I wrote.


I have Posted this Zeno so that You could see that I had NOT Ignored Your Reply to Me.


Regards,


Chris

"Hello Again Zeno",

I hope that You won`t mind if I don`t try to remember what I wrote in My `Lost` Post of Sunday - I probably went into far too much detail anyway.

To make it short - and I have written this previously - I can`t understand how the Local Authority Building Control Departments can be stating that some People who are `Notifying` Gas Appliance Installations are `NOT Members of a Competent Persons Scheme` - As GasSafe when they Notify the LABC on behalf of the Registered Gas Installer ARE the Competent Persons Scheme for Gas Installers.

When Gas Installers Notify their Installations of Gas Appliances to GasSafe - because of their Gas ACS Assessment Categories / Registrations the Gas Installer is `An Approved Person` to be Installing Gas Appliances - To Comply with ALL Relevant Gas Regulations - Manufacturers Instructions AND Building Regulations.

I really don`t know what the statement in there Article from the LABC`s means - in light of the above information - GasSafe is THE ONLY `Competent Persons Scheme` for GAS.

IF the Article had stated that they have found Gas Appliance Installations where some Building Regulations had NOT been adhered to for Work that had been Notified to the LABC by GasSafe - that would be a different matter - I am certain that there would be Gas Appliance Installations where that is the case.

Human Nature means that there will always be People who don`t adhere to the Regulations - However Qualified / Registered / Knowledgeable they are.


Regards,


Chris