Dangerous upgrade to crabtree rcbo's

[Andy78]

My god your life must be full of exciting things..
I have a healthy respect for electricity but am not that scared of it that I sit up worrying all night that if I don't have my rubber pants on I might die everytime I open up a a single phase fuse board.. Do you really work as an installation electrician on site.. I guess not

Maybe this is why these devices are designed as such, to make life more exciting for those of you that like to spice things up a bit by ignoring basic safety procedures on a regular basis.
They've done you a favour. Imagine how boring it would be without things like this to keep you ticking over. Good job Crabtree !

 

[Midwest]

My god your life must be full of exciting things..
I have a healthy respect for electricity but am not that scared of it that I sit up worrying all night that if I don't have my rubber pants on I might die everytime I open up a a single phase fuse board.. Do you really work as an installation electrician on site.. I guess not

My life's has been eventful, but I hope it goes on for a few more years yet, not least to keep getting my pension I paid for. I hope thats something you aspire to.

I've worked live a few times, did recently inadvertently; came as quite a shock.

However, there are very few times when it can be justified; if your honest with yourself. Often pressurised to do so by circumstances, but generally by others. I was taught many years ago, that no emergency, can ever justify a car accident. Same should be said for this.

Like with most things, the more you do something which can be construed as hazardous, it becomes the norm. When things become routine, thats when you most expose yourself to chance, like I found out recently.

Take care of your life, no one else is responsible for it.

 

[Alrebcon180]

My life's has been eventful, but I hope it goes on for a few more years yet, not least to keep getting my pension I paid for. I hope thats something you aspire to.

I've worked live a few times, did recently inadvertently; came as quite a shock.

However, there are very few times when it can be justified; if your honest with yourself. Often pressurised to do so by circumstances, but generally by others. I was taught many years ago, that no emergency, can ever justify a car accident. Same should be said for this.

Like with most things, the more you do something which can be construed as hazardous, it becomes the norm. When things become routine, thats when you most expose yourself to chance, like I found out recently.

Take care of your life, no one else is responsible for it.

I totally agree with that Midwest and you now just said exactly what I was trying to point out all along.. We do work live in circumstances and in these circumstances I was trying to stop someone getting a shock just like you did inadvertently.. But why do people then go all sanctimonious and say it should never be done.. You just admitted you got a shock on something u didn't realise was live which is more worrying than me working on something which I know is live as that points out that.you didn't test the circuit or carry out a locking off procedure to make sure it stayed dead.. ( lol I just became one of those people).. Normally I would have just said ---- mate you should be careful but I think this site is rubbing off on me

 

[Midwest]

I know it was rather careless of me, got a zap off an electric fire.

Funny thing was I had isolated it, then my colleague said lets just see if it works, and I forgot to turn it off again. Oh how we laughed, well he did

 

[Deleted member 26818]

WE can go on about live working, until the cows come home.
Simple fact is, an RCBO is a means of isolation.
This particular RCBO is not doing what it should be doing.
If I were to isolate the circuit protected by this RCBO to swap over a damaged socket front, the Neutral would be live as would every other Neutral connected to the Neutral bar.

 

[sparksfly]

Alexander....Thank You for bringing this to our attention, it is a valid point. Well done for contacting the technical team but no surprises as most companies these days wear nappies in case the proverbial hits the fan.
I work LIVE sometimes even in domestic situations, customers Working From Home 100%, computers/servers on 24/7....no UPS in most cases, broadband must stay on..assess the risks...you do or you don't.
CRABTREE - Just man up,
put your hands up and admit you have made a Boo Boo. Rethink your testing procedures, involve end users more, don't produce new products that introduce danger not apparent previously. Go on, man up...show us your busbar for once !! A recall too costly ? Maybe it's "Yellow warning sticker time" explaining the risk or possible side effects.
Alexander....Thank You & Well Done.

 

[Midwest]

WE can go on about live working, until the cows come home.
Simple fact is, an RCBO is a means of isolation.
This particular RCBO is not doing what it should be doing.
If I were to isolate the circuit protected by this RCBO to swap over a damaged socket front, the Neutral would be live as would every other Neutral connected to the Neutral bar.

Now I'm confused, easily done. I thought we were saying that just the fly lead was still live (when RCBO was switched off); is the neutral (load) output of the RCBO also remaining live when isolated?

If so, its not doing what Crabtree are advertising;

'Starbreaker Miniature RCBOs with switched neutral built in as standard will fully isolate a faulty or damaged circuit by disconnecting live and neutral conductors'.

 

[Alrebcon180]

Now I'm confused, easily done. I thought we were saying that just the fly lead was still live (when RCBO was switched off); is the neutral (load) output of the RCBO also remaining live when isolated?

If so, its not doing what Crabtree are advertising;

'Starbreaker Miniature RCBOs with switched neutral built in as standard will fully isolate a faulty or damaged circuit by disconnecting live and neutral conductors'.

No I tested the output and all seemed OK with that side of it.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Now I'm confused, easily done. I thought we were saying that just the fly lead was still live (when RCBO was switched off); is the neutral (load) output of the RCBO also remaining live when isolated?

If so, its not doing what Crabtree are advertising;

'Starbreaker Miniature RCBOs with switched neutral built in as standard will fully isolate a faulty or damaged circuit by disconnecting live and neutral conductors'.

It may be that there would be no voltage on the isolated circuit Neutral.
Perhaps sending voltage down the fly lead to the Neutral bar would not be a problem?
I could see problems with a board that uses a mixture of RCBOs and MCBs, or in a TT installation with an up front 100mA RCD.

 

[Midwest]

It may be that there would be no voltage on the isolated circuit Neutral.
Perhaps sending voltage down the fly lead to the Neutral bar would not be a problem?
I could see problems with a board that uses a mixture of RCBOs and MCBs, or in a TT installation with an up front 100mA RCD.

Not suggesting this design does not presents issues; but in your example the circuit would be safe to work on, as both live conductors would be isolated (live & neutral).

Lets not forget with SP RCBO's and mcb's, are we all not live working, by just isolating said device?

 

[Phillip]

As per the text again in the real world of electrical work which I have been doing for 30 years you do have to work on a live fuse board now and again and anyone who has worked In a commercial or school environment will agree or just lie to go along with the people who " have never worked on anything live".. And yes to answer your question it does now mean that if I have to replace one of these items I will have to rethink how I go about this..
This is the reason I never post on these sites because I was trying to give a heads up to anyone who might be in a situation where they are replacing one I didn't want them to receive a shock like I did. But unfortunately most people on this site prefer to be argumentative and pick on the isolation side rather than actually pass on some info that might help someone..

 

[Phillip]

Sometimes in the real world, you will have to work on live equipment. Being it domestic or commercial. You can talk regulations and safety all you like. But the real world is not like that.

 

[sheppertonspark]

Has anyone installed the new compact rcbo from crabtree and noticed a flaw that they have introduced that doesn't exist on the older larger model starbreaker rcbo..
The basics of it are that the new compact rcbo when plugged into the busbar in a circumstance that many will come across where you can't turn off the mains once the rcbo is clicked in but still in the off position the neutral tail actually bacomes live and has upto 170 volts on it, therefor if u touch this and then the neutral bar you become part of the circuit and get a shock..

It sounds to me as though you have uncovered a design fault. The internal trip mechanism must be fed from the live side of the breaker , not the protected side. Quite rightly you would not expect the neutral tail to be "live" when the circuit breaker is off.

 

[mrloy99]

WE can go on about live working, until the cows come home.
Simple fact is, an RCBO is a means of isolation.
This particular RCBO is not doing what it should be doing.
If I were to isolate the circuit protected by this RCBO to swap over a damaged socket front, the Neutral would be live as would every other Neutral connected to the Neutral bar.

Only if the neutral is disconnected at mains

 

[telectrix]

could this be a similar scenario to a circuit that has L energised with a load in circuit, and the N floating (dissed). due to the no current flow = 0 V drop, the N is sitting at 230V. this disappears when N is connected. in the RCBO case, the load would be the internal gubbins in the RCBO.?????

 

[Alrebcon180]

could this be a similar scenario to a circuit that has L energised with a load in circuit, and the N floating (dissed). due to the no current flow = 0 V drop, the N is sitting at 230V. this disappears when N is connected. in the RCBO case, the load would be the internal gubbins in the RCBO.?????

Yes think that is exactly what is happening just that you don't normally think of your rcbo as a load but more of a disconnection device that if its switched off u wouldn't expect anything to be live..

 

[johnduffell]

Yes think that is exactly what is happening just that you don't normally think of your rcbo as a load but more of a disconnection device that if its switched off u wouldn't expect anything to be live..

An isolator only isolates the outgoing terminals. The fly lead is an incoming terminal.
If you turn off an isolator it only isolates the outgoing terminals. the incoming line terminal is certainly of course still at phase voltage, and if there is any circuitry the incoming neutral would be live too if parted. If it's not parted it would be close to installation earth voltage.

This example can repeat in other situations so do take care - imagine a Usb double socket or similar. If you switch the socket off and leave the line connected and part the neutrals somewhere, you'd expect to get a shock from the neutral.
All current carrying conductors are to be treated as live for this reason, including neutral.

Glad you're ok and thanks for the reminder of the risks.

 

[Alrebcon180]

An isolator only isolates the outgoing terminals. The fly lead is an incoming terminal.
If you turn off an isolator it only isolates the outgoing terminals. the incoming line terminal is certainly of course still at phase voltage, and if there is any circuitry the incoming neutral would be live too if parted. If it's not parted it would be close to installation earth voltage.

This example can repeat in other situations so do take care - imagine a Usb double socket or similar. If you switch the socket off and leave the line connected and part the neutrals somewhere, you'd expect to get a shock from the neutral.
All current carrying conductors are to be treated as live for this reason, including neutral.

Glad you're ok and thanks for the reminder of the risks.

 

[MFS Electrical]

Yep done that and also broke both a new one and an old one apart and you can clearly see the neutral fly lead In the new one is connected to the live bus bar prong.

Did you take pictures? we like to see

 

[Alrebcon180]

Did you take pictures? we like to see

Yes they are on this thread somewhere