EV Charging post AMD2

[Marty92]

Hi all,

Looking at this again…

As most now know the industry is spit on EV Charging and Pen fault detection!

Given there is no standard for O-PEN devices and I am yet to see one which is sold legally, i.e. CE or UKCA certified with an appropriate deceleration of conformity why do some install them?

Amendment 2 seeks to give the installer a bit of protection by providing a suggested set of documentation to attach to the EIC but why would should we be happy to install kit which contravenes statutory legal requirements?

To my mind the only way to safely install an EV charge point is on a TT system or with the point itself with a rod, that has its own problems with proximity to buried metallic services.

Why as an industry have we let it get to a point where installers are actively asked to breach statutory documents?

 

[DPG]

Are there no detection devices on the market that are CE approved then?

 

[Marty92]

There are some which are incorporated in to single phase charging stations such as rolec where the overall unit is CE certified but as far as I can find there are no Matt:e style devices that are CE/EMCR marked or approved.

UK law mats it unlawful to sell or place on the market any device which is not CE or more recently UKCA approved.

 

[Midwest]

Have you watched the videos and web in airs, from the likes of John Ward and the e5 group?

 

[pc1966]

The Matt:e instruction manual as the EU declaration of conformity on LV & EMC, etc, on the last page.

I would be very surprised if they are not CU/UKCA marked.

 

[Lister1987]

The Matt:e instruction manual as the EU declaration of conformity on LV & EMC, etc, on the last page.

I would be very surprised if they are not CU/UKCA marked.

Would be interesting to see the technical file on thr product, I believe this is where yhr gripe comes from; stating conformity but not being very open with the how. Of course Trading Standards and/or HSE can demand the technical file and categorically put it to bed in terms of conformity but I can't see that happening.

I can fully understand thier stance and drive to do thorough due diligence but can't help but think thr manufacturers have a role to play here too; if there's no consumer confidence in tht product thrn it's an uphill battle from there.

 

[Marty92]

I have seen the DoC for the Matt:e but still not CE marked at last look.

EMCD is new though, still not compliant as a programable device though.

Not just them though, not seen standalone any that are CE/UKCA.

The E5 view is one I agree with, these devices are not approved, there is no applicable standard yet.

 

[LastManOnline]

The E5 view is one I agree with, these devices are not approved, there is no applicable standard yet.

Your post is another example of the imbalance that exists in our industry.The balance favours the manufacturers who seem to be able to effortlessly bring a product to market and let others (electrical installer) worry about how to provide the necessary nfrastructure to allow it to be used safely.
A similar situation exists with the use of rcd,s.The types of rcd,s being installed now are resulting from the electronics in appliances which have been on the market for years.Should,nt the manufacture have an obligation to design his product to suit the infrastructure that is already there ? or at least to give some advance notice to the industry as to what is coming down the line.

 

[Marty92]

Your post is another example of the imbalance that exists in our industry.The balance favours the manufacturers who seem to be able to effortlessly bring a product to market and let others (electrical installer) worry about how to provide the necessary nfrastructure to allow it to be used safely.
A similar situation exists with the use of rcd,s.The types of rcd,s being installed now are resulting from the electronics in appliances which have been on the market for years.Should,nt the manufacture have an obligation to design his product to suit the infrastructure that is already there ? or at least to give some advance notice to the industry as to what is coming down the line.

Absolutely… But…

Manufacturers of RCD’s and electronic devices etc etc are at least in the main complying with the laws for their products.

My concern is for the lowly electrician installing these devices, inadvertently breaking the law.

Unless CE/UKCA marked, EMCD & PLC certified these stand alone ‘O-PEN’ units are actually unlawfully sold.

 

[pc1966]

Unless CE/UKCA marked, EMCD & PLC certified these stand alone ‘O-PEN’ units are actually unlawfully sold.

Have you actually asked Matt:e (and similar) about this point?

I would be very surprised if they had not complied with the various UK regulations for such a product, especially as they are sold through retailers like CEF, etc, who are likely to do due diligence on suppliers.

 

[Marty92]

Ab

Have you actually asked Matt:e (and similar) about this point?

I would be very surprised if they had not complied with the various UK regulations for such a product, especially as they are sold through retailers like CEF, etc, who are likely to do due diligence on suppliers.

Absolutely, many times.

They make excuses and point to the LVD.

Initially they did not even supply a DoC, now they do. They are still not legal unless CE marked/certified.

Truth is no one cares and the powers that be are intentionally blind to the issue as the electrician that fits it will take the fall.

 

[Marty92]

Have you actually asked Matt:e (and similar) about this point?

I would be very surprised if they had not complied with the various UK regulations for such a product, especially as they are sold through retailers like CEF, etc, who are likely to do due diligence on suppliers.

One other and important thing to remember is there is no BS or BSEN standard for an O-PEN device.

This is on the cards but does not currently exist.

Most claim compliance to LVD etc, some also EMCD.

They all need EMCD & PLC certification as they are electronic and programable devices.

LVD is likely a result of 61439 devices etc.

 

[pc1966]

One other and important thing to remember is there is no BS or BSEN standard for an O-PEN device.

This is on the cards but does not currently exist.

Most claim compliance to LVD etc, some also EMCD.

The lack of a standard for O-PEN is a very important point, but it is totally different from the CE marking aspect.

All a CE mark is showing is the manufacturer claims to meet the relevant EU directives. In this case I expect the only ones that apply are the LVD (for electrical power safety) and the EMCD (for surge protection and lack of radio frequency interference).

The lack of information and performance comparisons on who they work ought to be addressed!

I know some O-PEN devices follow the idea covered in amendment 1 (I think) that simply checks if the supply voltage is out of range implying an open PEN might be happening, but that is far from foolproof.

Others like the Zappi charger are, I believe, RCD-like but look at the unbalance on live and CPC combined, indicating that something is going stray (which could be a live leak to true Earth as traditional RCD detect, or it might be a shock via elevated CPC potential from an open PEN fault, etc). However, that is not really meeting the ADS concept as it only will trip when something (or someone!) has completed the circuit, it would not disconnect simply on open PEN itself. Although you could combine that approach with the out-of-range sensing above for greater fault coverage.

And some (older?) chargers have earth rods, but I don't know it they use that to sense CPC to true Earth voltage and disconnect all conductors (live and CPC) rather like the old VOELCB, or they are basically just a "TT in a box" device with a RCD and the rod is providing the final charger circuit's means of earthing.

 

[Lister1987]

If products are on tht market illegally, why not approach trading standards / HSE? If its a simple case of not being legal to sell yhrn it'll be a quick win for them, or are thry just not interested? Would have thought with it being 'emerging tech' and the drive to an EV no pun intended future they'd be on this like flies on

 

[DPG]

OP, I presume you have raised this with the relevant authorities. What is their take on it? Their inputwill be of more use than that of a forum of electricians.

 

[UNG]

Are there any statistics with regard to the occurance of open PEN faults or are these devices a belt and braces approach to a problem which has a minimal chance of occurring
As a aside it begs the question why we don't have devices to check for the loss of the suppliers earth on TN-S supplies which I have found more often than an open PEN

 

[pc1966]

Are there any statistics with regard to the occurance of open PEN faults or are these devices a belt and braces approach to a problem which has a minimal chance of occurring

I wondered that as well and @Julie. provided an answer of about 350/year:

Open PEN causes? > on Free Electrical Advice - Electricians Forums

Find Open PEN causes? Advice and Help. How-to Open PEN causes? in the UK Electrical Forum advice boards on Electricians Forums. Open PEN causes? on ElectriciansForums.net Electrical Advice Forum.

www.electriciansforums.net

As a aside it begs the question why we don't have devices to check for the loss of the suppliers earth on TN-S supplies which I have found more often than an open PEN

An open TN-S earth is not automatically rising to significant voltage, so it needs a 2nd fault to become life-threatening. True, such a 2nd fault might happen at the same time (e.g. partly severed cable, etc) but in that case a conventional RCD should disconnect.

 

[Midwest]

I'm also somewhat sceptical these devices are being sold without the appropriate certification. Not withstanding that BS7671 has given them scope to function or not with some broad specifications.

 

[UNG]

I wondered that as well and @Julie. provided an answer of about 350/year:

Open PEN causes? > on Free Electrical Advice - Electricians Forums

Find Open PEN causes? Advice and Help. How-to Open PEN causes? in the UK Electrical Forum advice boards on Electricians Forums. Open PEN causes? on ElectriciansForums.net Electrical Advice Forum.

www.electriciansforums.net

But that figure was never explained when Julie heard it and looking around the web it is difficult to substantiate any meaningful numbers for the occurrance of an open PEN

An open TN-S earth is not automatically rising to significant voltage, so it needs a 2nd fault to become life-threatening. True, such a 2nd fault might happen at the same time (e.g. partly severed cable, etc) but in that case a conventional RCD should disconnect.

But with any extraneous metalwork bonded to a MET that isn't earthed it could cause some problems in an installation
And then we go looking for another statistic on how many installations have yet to have RCD's / RCBO's installed

 

[Midwest]

I think the incidents to open PEN conductors have been routinely established without injury & injury. If you Google it.

 

[LastManOnline]

Are there any statistics with regard to the occurance of open PEN faults

Not always readily available in my experience and I have a keen interest in open PEN faults.Here is a statistic I got last night in a newsletter from my regulatory body which may be of interest.Electrical fatalies have steadily decreased since 2000.There have been no fatalities in last 3 years. This same period corresponds with the implementation of TNC-S nationwide.
Open PEN faults did,nt exist in the early 1990,s because we were TT.Now we are no longer allowed to use TT.Surprised by these statistics? I was. It does undermine my "crusade" against TNC-S but I,m happy to be proved wrong if the stats show that I,m wrong

As a aside it begs the question why we don't have devices to check for the loss of the suppliers earth on TN-S supplies which I have found more often than an open PEN

A valid point.But as pc1966 says ,it's a less serious situation than an open PEN and in reality the loss of the suppliers earth or indeed the loss of a circuit CPC will usually manifest itself either in a telltale "tittle" at bonded or exposed metalwork as soon as an appliance with intentional leakage built in is plugged in to a socket

 

[pc1966]

But that figure was never explained when Julie heard it and looking around the web it is difficult to substantiate any meaningful numbers for the occurrance of an open PEN

I think the DNO are required to report all occurrences of this, but i don't know where that would be accessible (if public at all).

The IET has a short article on the problems but no stats:

Broken PEN

Don’t panic, this article is not about broken ballpoint pens, it is concerning broken PEN conductors in PME earthing arrangements.

bit.ly

But with any extraneous metalwork bonded to a MET that isn't earthed it could cause some problems in an installation
And then we go looking for another statistic on how many installations have yet to have RCD's / RCBO's installed

That is very true, and that boy who was killed in the pub garden a few years ago was down to that sort of situation (compounded by criminal negligence getting there), but really i think the concern for EV chargers is folks are likely to be washing the cars while plugged in, so more like a swimming pool for shock risk than typical external lights, etc.

So I'm not saying an open supply earth is EVER OK and that is one critical thing to check before any work, etc, but the TN-C-S cases has more opportunities for it to cause death, injury, or equipment damage.

 

[pc1966]

Not always readily available in my experience and I have a keen interest in open PEN faults.Here is a statistic I got last night in a newsletter from my regulatory body which may be of interest.Electrical fatalies have steadily decreased since 2000.There have been no fatalities in last 3 years. This same period corresponds with the implementation of TNC-S nationwide.

From various discussions it seems it was the cables with aluminium outer PEN that are the biggest cause of the faults due to corrosion from water ingress. So modern setups with copper waveform outers, etc, in ROI may well be far less prone to it that some of the 70s era stuff in the UK.

 

[UNG]

Not always readily available in my experience and I have a keen interest in open PEN faults.Here is a statistic I got last night in a newsletter from my regulatory body which may be of interest.Electrical fatalies have steadily decreased since 2000.There have been no fatalities in last 3 years. This same period corresponds with the implementation of TNC-S nationwide.

But there has also been a greater emphasis on the fitting of RCD's in the last decade or so that would help distort the figures as well

 

[marcuswareham]

But there has also been a greater emphasis on the fitting of RCD's in the last decade or so that would help distort the figures as well

Why would that distort the figures as an open PEN is dangerous with or without an RCD, the RCD will do nothing if you have an open or high impedance PEN conductor fault

 

[marcuswareham]

I

"crusade" against TNC-S

I too am on a crusade against TNCS but it would be very interesting to know the exact figures and if there has been very little problem interesting to know why that is. To me its a rubbish system only implemented to save money, and with when with some resistors wired in a star configuration between the phases and a voltage monitoring device between the star point of the resistors and the PEN conductor you can detect a PEN fault so why is the not mandatory for the DNOs to implement this when without it the worst consequence is death without a fault condition in the consumer's electrical installation !! ? !

 

[marcuswareham]

EV chargers is folks are likely to be washing the cars while plugged in

On a video from David Savery when he installed an EV charger, he went on a little rant about why PEN faults are not an issue for EVs, due to the charger points CPC not being bonded to the cars body/chassis but instead the DC battey ground is bonded the car body/chassis and there is isolation (via transformer) between the AC/TNCS CPC/Earth and the DC ground, I have no idea how true this is , but would be very interesting if it is true, even if only for some cars

 

[Lister1987]

Broken PEN is reportable under ESQCR to the HSE so they're bound to have stats and figures, an FOI request should get them, what with them being a government body and all

 

[LastManOnline]

But there has also been a greater emphasis on the fitting of RCD's in the last decade or so that would help distort the figures as well

Rcd,s certainly a factor (though obilatory since early 1990,s on sockets) but there is no question that this same period of time has seen an overall improvement in how the trade is regulated.Obigatory registration for sparks ,regular inspections .And the fact that jail sentences are been imposed for unregulated carrying out of electrical work.

 

[pc1966]

I have no idea how true this is , but would be very interesting if it is true, even if only for some cars

Certainly the live (L & N) will be isolated from the car's DC system but I would be surprised if the charger system really met class II "double insulation" standards at that sort of power level so no CPC needed, even the filter capacitors for EMC control are likely to leak a few mA to make it fail such a classification.

But I guess the bigger problem is the "only for some cars" possibility. Unless the EV charger only mates with a specific standard that mandates CPC isolation on all matching cars then you need your class I earthing arrangement and we are back to the open PEN risk once more.

Now if we are seeing around 1 open PEN fault per day in the UK then by time we are looking at millions of EV being charged in the street we could be looking at a few serious incidents per year. That might well be far less death/injury from the driving of the EV of course, but it would still be considered an unacceptable risk by the public at large considering how well most other risks are managed and would no doubt be seized upon by the newspapers, etc.

 

[LastManOnline]

On a video from David Savery when he installed an EV charger, he went on a little rant about why PEN faults are not an issue for EVs, due to the charger points CPC not being bonded to the cars body/chassis but instead the DC battey ground is bonded the car body/chassis and there is isolation (via transformer) between the AC/TNCS CPC/Earth and the DC ground, I have no idea how true this is , but would be very interesting if it is true, even if only for some cars

Interestingly,the INDRA EV charger has an option the installer can choose where the circuit CPC is broken under open PEN faults ,thus ensuring the car metalwork is voltage free.Breaking the CPC? Thats more than a lttle revolutionary ,but if it can be done safely , I,m for it as I find it preferable to some of the current "safety measures" in use for EV chargers

 

[pc1966]

Breaking the CPC? Thats more than a lttle revolutionary ,but if it can be done safely , I,m for it as I find it preferable to some of the current "safety measures" in use for EV chargers

That is basically how the Matt:e and similar work, the major difference I guess is how they detect the open PEN condition.

Going TT is doing that from the outset by providing an alternative means of earthing (the rod).