Fixed Appliances--Again-No doubt

[Adam W]

To test an appliance with a plugtop you have to unplug it, which BS7671 recognises as a method of isolation. As regards these pass/fail testers I can't help thinking they're a step in a dangerous direction - as it is there are 'non-electricians' doing PAT who as mentioned may not be competent to safely isolate and disconnect an appliance wired into a FCU and may rely too heavily on what the tester says and nothing else, the result being perfectly good appliances may fail because the tester can't find a point of earth continuity to test to, or worse still may pass an appliance with an obvious visual (or other sense) fault because the machine has deemed it a pass.

As I've said PAT isn't rocket science, but that may be speaking as an electrician; for example before I was even allowed to start training I had to do a colour perception test, while I don't remember anything like that when signing up to the 2377.
Basic stuff, but if you're totally colour blind how can you be sure a plug has been wired correctly?

Maybe the 'answer' is some kind of compulsory bridging course for non-electricians to cover some of the basics before the 2377 is taken. The college I trained at wouldn't let you take the 2382 without a full electrical qualification, although there are training centres who would probably just hand over the certificate if you've got enough money.

 

[oldtimer]

There will be a new COP out sooner rather than later, but this will just be a change of terminology to realign with the same in the wiring regs. The changes will be minor, and the principles and practices wont change. C&G have no intentions to change the course, although they did change it in January, but in title only, this was to enable them to align the course with the QCF system. The exam went from 30 to 50 questions. So now if you do the course, and pass either the practical or the online test, then you dont need to redo the lot again if you fail one of the 2 modules.

Cheers.........Howard

Ahhhhhh great thats means I get to go out and spend hard cash on the new COP but I am still saving my pennies as I broke the bank buying BGB Onsite guide, EICR documentation better stop there as I have said all this before and just when I get them all neatly on the shelves then we might get a BBB (big blue book) and...............................

 

[Top Cat]

I think to stop all confusion between fixed and non fixed appliance testing we need to re name the procedure. My suggestion is:-

Frequent Allencompassing Rigorous Testing

F.A.R.T

We could then get a C& G in FARTING!

 

[Litttle Shonet]

as it is there are 'non-electricians' doing PAT who as mentioned may not be competent to safely isolate and disconnect an appliance wired into a FCU

I think this is where a lot of the confusion comes from. You don't have to be a quallified electrician to carry out PAT testing ,therefore you 'don't ' do fixed appliances.

 

[Adam W]

I think this is where a lot of the confusion comes from. You don't have to be a quallified electrician to carry out PAT testing ,therefore you 'don't ' do fixed appliances.

Who does then?
You'd need to get a qualified electrician in to test them, or at least disconnect the appliance so you can test it and then reconnect it again afterwards, so why not just get a qualified electrician in to do the lot?

 

[Litttle Shonet]

Who does then?
You'd need to get a qualified electrician in to test them, or at least disconnect the appliance so you can test it and then reconnect it again afterwards, so why not just get a qualified electrician in to do the lot?

Exactly, thats what I was trying to say. I think the body who thought up the PAT testing scheme must have done it down the pub on the back of a smoke packet. It needs sorting out!!!
How can someone who has no electrical background even be considered for the 2377, let alone test appliances

 

[Adam W]

I sometimes get the impression the main reason for PAT testing is to create jobs.

 

[Silly Sausage]

I sometimes get the impression the main reason for PAT testing is to create jobs.

Me too.
I must admit, I completely agree with the article in this month's Wiring Matters on PAT.

 

[Litttle Shonet]

hello - Urgently need a PAT Testers help Please

Just started reading this thread. I rest my case

 

[oldtimer]

As I have said PAT testing great we can have a good industry hiving it off electricians and making it semi skilled and yes it works then somebody pipes up and says well a PIR covers the fixed wiring and a PAT test covers the portable stuff but what covers the fixed appliances so PAT no goes to ISI&TEE and o boy what a can of worms this is. Plus when I was on the course this is what the lecturer was trying to say without making it too obvious this is what is keeping them awake at night because you cannot say just ignore it if it is wired to a FCU

 

[Adam W]

The way these people seem to think is rather than considering whose responsibility it is to test a certain piece of equipment it's more a case of "it's not my problem".
A skilled electrician is familiar with the regs and more specifically the spirit of the regs, rather than knowing which specific reg prohibits what, and should have a certain degree of responsibility so will at least enquire as to whether specific arrangements have been made for any limitations. A PAT tester on the other hand who is essentially 'testing by numbers' and who comes out with lines like "the P is for Portable" is apparently shirking responsibility and potentially leaving equipment untested.
As I've said in another thread if I were a client getting testing done I'd rather just say to someone "test everything" instead of trying to establish who is going to test what, getting an electrician to disconnect fixed equipment so some PAT tester can test it before the electrician reconnects it.

 

[oldtimer]

Adam the test everything sounds good but its all down to cost the minute they put PAT testing into the hands of the semi skilled then this opened the floodgates to the 40p PAT test and as normal the Schemies are kicking the can down the road. As I was saying the lecturer I was speaking to was working from a technical college ie not one of those private mobs that say come to us and you will start at 8 and be qualified at 4 so he is in the know with regards to what are the "authorities" discussing re PAT testing and he highlighted the fixed appliance problem with regards to non electricians, the splitting of the qualification into 2 and maybe 3 parts down the road plus the renaming it to ISI&TEE as per the code of practise .

 

[Adam W]

I suppose the old adage "you get what you pay for" rings true here - you can pay silly money for testing, but it will only cover anything which can be unplugged.
This could be why people still ask electricians to PAT test.

 

[sparkie_Al]

Ok, I started the dreaded PAT testing this week, and the everything brigade will be pleased as I test everything, including dirty greasy free standing cookers and extractors and fridges alike.
I had Two that totally got me, one was a kitchen that had been installled with new appliances two weeks ago......tested though on the principles that (a) it was on the issued list. (b) just because it was all new and covered by guarentees...dont necessarily make it safe!
The second was a hob extractor that I could not find any power source for, but suspect that it was completely covered in above the units with a top pelmet, and taking it down I would of had to destroy a 12ft length........listed unit as not tested.

 

[Adam W]

I will proudly stand up and admit to being a member of 'the everything brigade' rather than one of those 'not my problem' shirkers.

 

[Jimmy Boy]

Out of interest does a C&G course on PAT cover how to disconnect a fixed appliance, including the full safe isolation and lock off procedure ? and the use of compliant testers, and everything needed to reconnect ? refitting an FCU to an appliance is I would argue a matter for someone that is competent to 17th. I'm not saying they shouldn't be done..but not sure the Janitor might best suited

 

[Adam W]

When I did the 2377 I was taught by the same tutor I had on a different day for my level 3 2330. He told the 2377 group that to test an appliance wired to a FCU you would need to get an electrician to disconnect it, then you could test it via one of those connection boxes with the 3 levers (can't remember the exact name of them right now) or by temporarily putting a plug on the end, then your electrician would reconnect it. I pointed out that it might be easier for the electrician just to do the whole lot and he agreed.
Obviously 'the correct' way to test this kind of appliance is a bit of a faff for a non-electrician, which I reckon is where the 'P is for Portable' argument comes from - if something is difficult to test the PAT tester might argue that it doesn't need to be tested.

I suppose it's a bit like pulling the service fuse to change a CU where a main isolator hasn't been provided - we shouldn't do it but it's a way of getting the job finished safely.

 

[oldtimer]

Yep agree Adam I just did the 2377 last November and as the tutor said this is causing them a lot of headaches as aparently they have agreed that a EICR/PIR covers the fixed wiring but the old term PAT testing did not include the fixed appliances and that the new In-service Inspection & Testing of Electrical Equipment will have to include this as they can no longer ignore as he put it the elephant in the room.

But years ago PAT testing was a really neat idea that would generate money for the industry and of course safety ie less people getting killed plus you could get semi skilled people to do the job to reduce costs . Only problem now is they can no loger ignore fixed appliances and at the same time they cannot train the semi skilled guy to go into a FCU because thats when they say that the regs kicks in and an electrician is required.

I also pointed out to him that we no longer have a PIR it is a EICR so why is the industry still calling it PAT when it should be II&TEE and he said well did you have a problem finding this course on our site and I said yes and he replied thats because you were trying to find a PAT course instead of the II&TEE (formally PAT) course that we advertise so expect changes he said