Full rewire needed? First time home owner

[bd1777]

Hi All,

Thanks for all the helpful advice in this forum. We've recently bought our first house - yay! With that being said, our building survey highlighted the wiring in the house, and an electrical installation report from 2017, when a new consumer unit was installed, suggested a rewire was necessary. We used this to reduce the sale price a bit, but I'm wtill wondering if it is needed. We will likely be replastering the house, so any chases shouldn't be a problem. I am a little worried about disruption to floorboards and things like kitchen tiles. With that being said, the house does have a new consumer unit, and so the grounding should be ok. The wiring looks like maybe 1970s uPVC? I've attached a picture. I've also attached the installation report from the new consumer unit, but I can't find what on it suggests new wiring may be needed. My thoughts are the circuit layout is not great, so a rewire would fix that, and we could add things like mains wired fire alarms, ethernet, etc. It's a 1904ish 3 bed semi that appears to have had the last major renovation in the 1970s.

Any thoughts based on this, or any questions I should ask the electricians we are having come in to provide quotes? Also, since we are going to replaster, would it help to have the plasterer strip the plaster before having the electrian in? I would think this should speed things up a bit and make it easier.

 

[buzzlightyear]

did the spark put in no compliance board ,like mix and match mcbs .

 

[loz2754]

The test results sheet doesn't correspond to the current configuration of that consumer unit.
That aside, I would strongly recommend taking this opportunity to do a complete rewire. It will allow you to have sockets exactly where you need them and will future proof the house for decades to come.

 

[Baddegg]

IR readings are all perfect so the cabling must be fine.....

 

[littlespark]

did the spark put in no compliance board ,like mix and match mcbs .

The board was put in 2017, would mix and match be an issue then? Possibly.
At least everything that needs RCD/RCBO protection has it.


The cert says the existing wiring is "poor". Can we get photos of how poor that is? 1970's would be twin and earth, nothing wrong with it. Only thing might be the number of sockets per room compared to new builds nowadays.

Obviously, if youre planning on redecorating, then now is the time to do any electrical work, even just additions rather than full rewire.

 

[buzzlightyear]

circuits 1to 4 me thinks non rcd ,but on the test sheet says rcd values .

 

[kropaske]

circuits 1to 4 me thinks non rcd ,but on the test sheet says rcd values .

They are RCBO's, Wylex on MK board, intresting

 

[steph-tux]

Hi,
I confirm that the protection seems very poor : my flat (60 square meters, 2 bedrooms) will have about 40 circuit breakers, on 5 rows, with 5 RCD.

I think you have only 1 RCD, only for the lights, and no RCD protection for all the sockets !!!
I would rewire everything, but it probably means to rewire all the house...
Stephane.

 

[MJPD29]

Hi,
I confirm that the protection seems very poor : my flat (60 square meters, 2 bedrooms) will have about 40 circuit breakers, on 5 rows, with 5 RCD.

I think you have only 1 RCD, only for the lights, witch are not so critical as sockets...
I would rewire everything, but it probably means to rewire all the house...
Stephane.

40 circuit breakers in a 2 bed flat? I'd like to see that

 

[nicebutdim]

40 circuit breakers in a 2 bed flat? I'd like to see that

Respondant is from France and seems to be unaware of different practices employed in UK.

 

[brianmoooore]

This is one of those cases where the wiring appears to be absolutely fine, but you will regret if if you don't rewire before the extensive redecoration you intend to do.
It's not that there's anything particularly wrong with the existing system, more that there's likely to be a lack of it, an some of what there is could well be DIY mods.

 

[steph-tux]

@Matthewd29
I just checked my wiring diagram. In fact, it will be only 32 circuit breakers... I've got electric heaters, with a circuit breaker for each one (not compulsory), and a lot of specific circuits with 1 circuit breaker for each one (compulsory) : fridge, oven, washing machine, ...
And also, there will be a big communication panel (TV, ethernet,...). This will be a huge wiring for a small flat.
As this flat will be considered as a new flat (I have no electricity at the moment), I need to respect the rules to pass the control. And in France, it's compulsory and very strict !

 

[brianmoooore]

@Matthewd29
I just checked my wiring diagram. In fact, it will be only 32 circuit breakers... I've got electric heaters, with a circuit breaker for each one (not compulsory), and a lot of specific circuits with 1 circuit breaker for each one (compulsory) : fridge, oven, washing machine, ...
And also, there will be a big communication panel (TV, ethernet,...). This will be a huge wiring for a small flat.
As this flat will be considered as a new flat (I have no electricity at the moment), I need to respect the rules to pass the control. And in France, it's compulsory and very strict !

In the UK, all fixed appliances over 2kW, such as your heaters and oven, will have their own circuit breakers, but all the rest of your sockets will probably be on just two breakers, and all the lights on two breakers.

 

[UNG]

So you have 1970's wiring and you are going to replaster anyway, I think you have answered your own question
From what you have said you are doing some serious renovation work so why not rewire and bring your installation up to date if you have a look around your property have you got sockets everywhere you want them back in the 70's some rooms at best had a couple of sockets an not always twin sockets.
If you need more sockets which is more than likely then the best option is a rewire

 

[SJD]

And while rewiring, get the consumer unit sorted out, as mentioned, what you've got doesn't match the test sheet, and almost looks as if there could have been issues with circuits tripping, so someone rejigged it to remove RCD protection from some circuits.

 

[bd1777]

Thanks all! Very useful. We are planning on a likely full replaster for a few reasons. First, there are some ceilings that could use a make-over, some rooms with plaster that sounds blown, and the added peace of mind by getting everything redone in breathable lime plaster to match the solid wall construction. The current state of the house doesn't require a full replaster - likely a partial one would be ok. However, if the benefits of the rewire are big enough, then certainly it would tip the balance to just replastering everything. It's one of those issues, though, that snowballs...if we replaster, we would likely also replace the central heating pipework to make sure everything that is very invasive is done at the same time. A damp survey highlighted that some areas likely had past leaks that were subsequently fixed, so probably not a bad idea to update everything. The downside is that it takes away from the budget we were planning on using to replace a very dated and ready to replace conservatory with a nice orangery or back extension. So it's a bunch of trade-offs. I'm generally of the the mindset to not fall for the sexy visual ones, instead prioritising ones that make sense for creating a well-put together house that minimises future maintenance.

 

[Baddegg]

You’d be foolish to renovate without at least getting another report done, and as above if you are renovating now is the time for a rewire to your specs for now and the future

 

[Pretty Mouth]

Can anyone explain what my eyes are seeing here:

 

[buzzlightyear]

Can anyone explain what my eyes are seeing here

Figment ov your imagination.

 

[James]

Heat damage?

 

[Pretty Mouth]

Figment ov your imagination.

Nonsense. And what's this then?

 

[steph-tux]

@Pretty Mouth
I had the same question... It's why I thought he had only one RCD... In fact, this is probably a bug on the picture.

And I didn't see the 1 to 4 circuit breakers where RCBO...
So, the wiring seems to be ok. But there are probably only a few sockets per room.

For information, I will have at least 6 sockets per bedroom and 12 in the kitchen. We never have enough sockets... An upgrade is probably the best option.

 

[GBDamo]

You've got an installation that is approaching, if not reached, the end of its design life.

That is not to say it won't soldier on fault free for another ten years but you have to ask, are you feeling lucky?

Now is the time to do this before you go mad with the Farrow&Ball and Italian tiles.

Its the one thing stopping me from moving. We both want an older property but there's no way I could start decorating without rewiring. When we look at houses the better half looks how immaculate it is, I'm thinking how much I'd have to rip apart.

Best of luck with the house.

 

[nicebutdim]

Its the one thing stopping me from moving. We both want an older property but there's no way I could start decorating without rewiring. When we look at houses the better half looks how immaculate it is, I'm thinking how much I'd have to rip apart.

I grew up in an old house and still feel like I'm painting the Forth Bridge in trying to maintain it for my folks. If I was in the shoes my parents wore when they bought that place, (and knowing what I know now) I'd have endured many hardships to ensure the infrastructure was as sounds as could be, before any decorative works took place.

 

[cliffed]

Ze 6.63 ? Or 0.62 it’s a Tncs so Max should be 0.35

 

[DPG]

@Matthewd29
I just checked my wiring diagram. In fact, it will be only 32 circuit breakers... I've got electric heaters, with a circuit breaker for each one (not compulsory), and a lot of specific circuits with 1 circuit breaker for each one (compulsory) : fridge, oven, washing machine, ...
And also, there will be a big communication panel (TV, ethernet,...). This will be a huge wiring for a small flat.
As this flat will be considered as a new flat (I have no electricity at the moment), I need to respect the rules to pass the control. And in France, it's compulsory and very strict !

32 circuit breakers in a 2 bed flat is frankly ridiculous. Do the French regs really demand this?

 

[steph-tux]

The minimum necessary is probably around 15 breakers (this is a flat with electric radiators). But it means you would have only 2 or 3 outlets per room, only one light point per room...

Number of breakers necessary for each circuit :
1 - roller blinds
1 - Mechanical ventilation
1 - washing machine
1 - tumble dryer
1 - dishwasher
1 - oven
1 - electric hob
1 - freezer
1 - water heater
1 - day/night water heater management protection
2 - outlets (around 23 outlets compulsory for such a flat) - maxi 12 outlets per breaker (2,5 mm2 wire, 20A breaker)
2 - electric radiators (5 radiators)
1 - light (max 8 light points per circuit breaker)
Total: 15

But I increased the number of breakers for this :

• 3 for electric radiators (1 circuit breaker per radiator)
• 1 for heating manager
• 3 for lights : 1 circuit breaker for 2 rooms (many light points per room)
• 5 for outlets : 1 circuit breaker per room and even 2 for the kitchen and 2 for the living room
• 1 for extractor hood
• 1 for door bell
• 1 for balcony light and outlets
• 1 for communication panel outlets,...

 

[Mike Johnson]

@Pretty Mouth
I had the same question... It's why I thought he had only one RCD... In fact, this is probably a bug on the picture.

And I didn't see the 1 to 4 circuit breakers where RCBO...
So, the wiring seems to be ok. But there are probably only a few sockets per room.

For information, I will have at least 6 sockets per bedroom and 12 in the kitchen. We never have enough sockets... An upgrade is probably the best option.

I hope the 12 sockets in the kitchen are on two separate radials only 6 allowed on any one circuit in the kitchen in France.

 

[Mike Johnson]

The minimum necessary is probably around 15 breakers (this is a flat with electric radiators). But it means you would have only 2 or 3 outlets per room, only one light point per room...

Number of breakers necessary for each circuit :
1 - roller blinds
1 - Mechanical ventilation
1 - washing machine
1 - tumble dryer
1 - dishwasher
1 - oven
1 - electric hob
1 - freezer
1 - water heater
1 - day/night water heater management protection
2 - outlets (around 23 outlets compulsory for such a flat) - maxi 12 outlets per breaker (2,5 mm2 wire, 20A breaker)
2 - electric radiators (5 radiators)
1 - light (max 8 light points per circuit breaker)
Total: 15

But I increased the number of breakers for this :

• 3 for electric radiators (1 circuit breaker per radiator)
• 1 for heating manager
• 3 for lights : 1 circuit breaker for 2 rooms (many light points per room)
• 5 for outlets : 1 circuit breaker per room and even 2 for the kitchen and 2 for the living room
• 1 for extractor hood
• 1 for door bell
• 1 for balcony light and outlets
• 1 for communication panel outlets,...

I would also suggest a separate breaker for:
Smoke alarm
Burglar alarm.

telerupteurs? Suggest electronic rather than the mechanical latching relay which would be very noisy in a small flat, probably four or five needed and they are additional to those listed, but admit have gone over to Quintonic in the last year or so, saves chasing the walls out for switch points when adding a circuit. (old stone property)

That makes 34 breakers which will require five RCD's, (DD's in France) taking into account the requirement of only eight breakers off any DD, that's a minimum of a four row board without any room for expansion, puts my four row board in the shade

 

[nicebutdim]

From rewire advice to circuit protection Top Trumps.

I'm curious about this French flat and whether or not it has a dedicated plant room to house all of these protective devices? Does it utilise RCBOs or are several circuits liable to be taken out by a single RCCB?

I'm sure the OP is delighted to know that continental conventions lavishly throw circuit protection at installations as though they were confetti, but perhaps it might be an idea to explain why this would be better? British convention allows protection of a 2 bed flat from a distribution board no bigger than a box of chocolates, populated by by protective devices that break both poles and provide earth leakage protection to individual circuits. What's better about a board that's as big as a Chevrolet?

 

[Mike Johnson]

We are but here to delight and entertain. ?

You have to envisage double the size of the Board for the GTL that is normal on a new build, so a dedicated cupboard is quite normal.

As in the UK RCBO's are becoming more frequent, but are rare at the moment, and yes as with most UK boards several circuits are liable to be taken out by a single RCD. The majority of UK boards do not have protective devices that break both poles or provide earth leakage protection to individual circuits, because the vast majority are not full RCBO boards, getting a bit ahead of yourself and the UK normal installation there, I would akin the French boards more like a Lincoln, Continental that is. ?

 

[nicebutdim]

I just fail to understand the logic behind post #8.

It suggests that 40 circuits protected by 5 RCCBs is a significant improvement on the OPs existing installation, without offering any suggestion as to why this would be the case. The only benefit I can see is that no circuit would be without earth leakage protection. Setting aside the differences in wiring conventions and nature of supplies, surely in France it would be more desireable to protect those circuits with individual RCBOs, rather than hanging 8 circuits off each RCCB?

Going back to my previous post; after a full reqire and the addition of any new circuits, the OP could gain more suitable protection at significantly less cost. Even if they don't rewire, and assuming all wiring is satisfactory, the OP could fit a new board that provides more suitable protection than found in said 2 bed flat and still save a load of money and space.

 

[nicebutdim]

The majority of UK boards do not have protective devices that break both poles or provide earth leakage protection to individual circuits, because the vast majority are not full RCBO boards, getting a bit ahead of yourself and the UK normal installation there, I would akin the French boards more like a Lincoln, Continental that is. ?

The point I'm making is that, division of circuits aside, the only benefit from the French example is that two remaining circuits would be RCD protected.

It is also worth pointing out that the flat in question has been upgraded, when being compared with the OP's older installation. While it's not common for RCBOs to break both poles in the UK, there are reasonably priced options that do just that.

 

[Creamy Goodne5]

sons. First, there are some ceilings that could use a make-over, some rooms with plaster that sounds blown, and the added peace of mind by getting everything redone in breathable lime plaster to match the solid wall construction. The current state of the house doesn't require a full replaster - likely a partial one would be ok. However, if the benefits of the rewire are big enough, then certainly it would tip the balance to just replastering everything. It's one of those issues, though, that snowballs...if we replaster, we would likely also replace the central heating pipework to make sure everything that is very invasive is done at the same time. A damp survey highlighted that some areas likely had past leaks that were subsequently fixed, so probably not a bad idea to update everything. The downside is that it takes away from the budget we were planning on using to replace a very dated and ready

Just a thought for you, full rewire doesnt mean full replaster, especially with the right electrian where you can walk round and explain where you want everthing.

Even the messiest electrican is only going to be chasing channels out of walls that can be reskimmed and look like new.

For me its a no brainer if you in full renovating mode. Just imagine the alternative that in 3 years a circuit fails and your then chasing walls out after youve remoddeled and redecorated.

 

[pc1966]

If you are rewiring and they are going in to plaster chases, etc, it is worth considering PVC conduit as well as then it is often possible to replace a cable later without major redecoration as it ought to pull through.

 

[chris50450]

32 circuit breakers in a 2 bed flat is frankly ridiculous. Do the French regs really demand this?

No they don't, it is quite excessive.
Average for a well appointed 2 bed appartment with electric heating would be 15-20 on 3 RCD's

 

[freddo]

No one has answered what is going on with that RCD type thing in the centre of the consumer unit, why has it been blanked and defaced? Is it even an RCD?

 

[naylorpd]

I think a rewire would be a good idea to help future-proof the house for many years. 1970s twin & earth is probably OK, just sockets and lights won't be in the right place. I remember being given advice on sockets - it's better to look at them than for them.

Here are some suggestions:
1) Maybe a small patch panel under the stairs with ethernet cable running to all the TVs, desks and wifi router
2) consider whether you will ever have CCTV, and how you might power it. Include cabling for POE back to your panel. Even if you can get wireless cameras, they still need power.
3) channel in cables for burglar alarm sensors in all rooms, at least downstairs - although there are some good wireless systems, the best are still hard-wired. Now is the time to do it.
4) rewire light switches so here is a neutral cable at the light switch - many smart lighting systems require it and most UK wiring doesn't have it.
5) Look carefully at where you might have TVs and put enough sockets etc. for TV, sound bar, DVD, XBox, Sky box etc. Mine looks like the photo - on the left of the sockets is a buried trunking for connecting DVD to TV etc. Arguably I could have put more sockets.
6) Build in speaker cabling for surround sound in the living room - no trailing cables makes it much easier

All in all, if you are ripping the wiring up and doing plastering, now is the cheapest and most practical time to do this.

 

[littlespark]

When we had an extension built, i meticulously planned where the TV was going... extra sockets, telephone point for the old sky box, satellite coax, network cabling for the smart tv, xbox....

2 years later, the wife decided she wanted the tv in a different corner.

2 years after that... she wanted it on the wall...

 

[telectrix]

When we had an extension built, i meticulously planned where the TV was going... extra sockets, telephone point for the old sky box, satellite coax, network cabling for the smart tv, xbox....

2 years later, the wife decided she wanted the tv in a different corner.

2 years after that... she wanted it on the wall...

serves you right for not anticipating this and providing TV points in every possible place a woman might change her mind for. then again, 200 TV points in a room is expensive on materials

 

[Mike Johnson]

That explains it, the French are female they even legislate that the Loo has to have a telephone point and all rooms have to have an RJ45 connection, they have obviously not heard of WiFi yet.