Garage Sockets Regulations

[Steina]

Hi everyone
I've been out the business a long time and am rusty on regs. Perhaps someone can assist?

My son has an armoured cable fed from his house CU via a dedicated mcb to his detached garage.

This cable is connected to a 'Lewden' 'garage' CU consisting of a 6A mcb feeding two small flourescent light fittings and a 16A mcb feeding one double switched socket.

He uses several rechargeable drills/tools etc in his job and currently uses two 4-way extension leads to recharge everything.

I'm proposing installing four additional double switched sockets and returning to his garage CU to change the feed to a ring. I appreciate this means I need to change his 16A mcb to a 32 A mcb.

To save changing the 16A for a 32A, is it within the regs to simple add four more sockets i.e. have five in total on a single cable?

 

[Bobster]

So what you're saying is you've never been in the business you're a DIYer that wishes for some advice.

Yes, you can add four more sockets. I'm sure those who do domestic work will correct me if I'm wrong here, but this work will be notifiable to building control, and will need a minor works certificate producing.

- Corrected by others, not notifiable if it stays as a radial circuit and is already RCD protected.

 

[hightower]

Can't see why it would be notifiable, just an addition to an existing circuit by the sounds of it.

 

[Midwest]

The additional sockets would need RCD protection (take it's a domestic garage). If the circuit remains as a radial, it would not need a compliance cert.

As Rob said, what level of competence, expertise and test equipment do you have?

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Yes you can add extra sockets to the 16A circuit, however the sockets require RCD protection.
No there is no requirement to notify.
Easiest way to provide RCD protection, would be to swap the 16A MCB for either a 16A or 20A RCBO.

 

[hightower]

Easiest way to provide RCD protection, would be to swap the 16A MCB for either a 16A or 20A RCBO.

@OP which would then require notification to LABC.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

No, it's an alteration to an existing circuit.

 

[hightower]

No, it's an alteration to an existing circuit.

I'd beg to differ, changing the protective device no longer makes it minor works.

 

[Midwest]

I'd beg to differ, changing the protective device no longer makes it minor works.

file:///C:/Users/kmoralee/Downloads/2005_15_summer_wiring_matters_part_p_notifications_to_building_control.pdf

Think that may be a link we can't access?

 

[Steina]

To clarify:
I'm a timed served electrician who then qualified as an engineer. I've worked in the Merchant Navy as an Electrical Engineer and Nuclear Power Stations. This experience removes me from the DIYer status but have not worked in domestic situations since I was in my early twenties (50 years ago!) and am therefore not familiar with current IEE Regs.

My original question is to ascertain whether I'm acting within regulations (whether building or IEE) in simply adding four more sockets to his existing radial circuit or do I have to make the radial a ring circuit and change the 16A mcb to a 32A mcb.

Much appreciate any help.

 

[Octopus]

Dare I ask what the OCPD is for the garage submain?

 

[Deleted member 26818]

To start with, that's from 2005.
Secondly there is nothing stating any of the work requires notification

 

[Deleted member 26818]

To clarify:
I'm a timed served electrician who then qualified as an engineer. I've worked in the Merchant Navy as an Electrical Engineer and Nuclear Power Stations. This experience removes me from the DIYer status but have not worked in domestic situations since I was in my early twenties (50 years ago!) and am therefore not familiar with current IEE Regs.

My original question is to ascertain whether I'm acting within regulations (whether building or IEE) in simply adding four more sockets to his existing radial circuit or do I have to make the radial a ring circuit and change the 16A mcb to a 32A mcb.

Much appreciate any help.

You do not have to change from radial to ring.
You do not have to change the MCB from 16A to 32A.
What you do have to do, is provide RCD protection for the new sockets.
This can be by using RCD sockets, swapping the 16A MCB for an RCBO, installing an RCD before the garage CU or by providing RCD protection at the house.

 

[Midwest]

I'd beg to differ, changing the protective device no longer makes it minor works.

That document is a bit out of date, well in England its is.

 

[Midwest]

I'll see if I can upload this one;

 

[Richard Burns]

To make any changes means that the changes you make must comply with current regulations Spinlondon has summarised this effectively.
It should be clarified that this RCD protection should be 30mA and that if there is already such protection further protection is not required.
You would also need to provide a minor electrical installation works certificate detailing the compliant results of your testing.
All this is assuming that the basic factors of the existing circuit are currently safely and compliantly installed.
Under building regulations in England, almost no matter what you do, if it is described in the above posts, it would not be notifiable work.

 

[Pete999]

I'd beg to differ, changing the protective device no longer makes it minor works.

Well there is not a new circuit, just extending an existing and changing the OCPD thats an alteration to existing so imo non notifiable.

 

[Octopus]

Using an EIC to confirm the change of OCPD is madness IMHO

 

[Pete999]

Using an EIC to confirm the change of OCPD is madness IMHO

Been said before it's an alteration MNWC is what should be used.

 

[hightower]

So why would a board change be notifiable? Essentially all you are doing is changing the OCPD a handful of times.

 

[Pete999]

So why would a board change be notifiable? Essentially all you are doing is changing the OCPD a handful of times.

Not sure of the reasons, but in the case discussed only one circuit is being altered, looking at the "Wiring Matters article" changing a CU does not constitute any Minor Works, their words not mine,

 

[Deleted member 26818]

An MEIWC is intended for an alteration to a single circuit.
A CU change normally involves multiple circuits so an EIC is required.

 

[Midwest]

So why would a board change be notifiable? Essentially all you are doing is changing the OCPD a handful of times.

'Cos, 'the replacement of a consumer unit' is specifically mentioned in the document as notifiable. Lets not forget, 'we' didn't make up the rules!

 

[Octopus]

'Cos, 'the replacement of a consumer unit' is specifically mentioned in the document as notifiable. Lets not forget, 'we' didn't make up the rules!

And nor do the NICEIC ........

 

[Midwest]

And nor do the NICEIC ........

Arrrgh you like raking up old coals

 

[Pete999]

And nor do the NICEIC ........

Maybe not, but they think they do, Murdoch

 

[Steina]

You do not have to change from radial to ring.
You do not have to change the MCB from 16A to 32A.
What you do have to do, is provide RCD protection for the new sockets.
This can be by using RCD sockets, swapping the 16A MCB for an RCBO, installing an RCD before the garage CU or by providing RCD protection at the house.

Dare I ask what the OCPD is for the garage submain?

Dare I ask what the OCPD is for the garage submain?

I will check this out since I'm not sure whether it is from an OCPD in the house CU.

 

[Steina]

You do not have to change from radial to ring.
You do not have to change the MCB from 16A to 32A.
What you do have to do, is provide RCD protection for the new sockets.
This can be by using RCD sockets, swapping the 16A MCB for an RCBO, installing an RCD before the garage CU or by providing RCD protection at the house.

Thank you for all the above, it's much appreciated.
I'm going to extend the radial with four additional D/Skts.
After ascertaining whether the garage supply from the house is from an OCPD or the garage CU has its own inbuilt, I'll exchange the 16A mcb for a 16A RCBO.
The garage CU shows RCCB protected 63A 30mA. I will check this out but read this as being adequately protected?

 

[Pete999]

Thank you for all the above, it's much appreciated.
I'm going to extend the radial with four additional D/Skts.
After ascertaining whether the garage supply from the house is from an OCPD or the garage CU has its own inbuilt, I'll exchange the 16A mcb for a 16A RCBO.
The garage CU shows RCCB protected 63A 30mA. I will check this out but read this as being adequately protected?

Dare I ask what size cable you will be using, and what method of installation, if the house CU has RCD protection and the Garage feed is coming from a cb on the RCD side of th CU (assuming it's not an amd 3CU) then all you need do is change the cb in the CU for a 20A, you don't want to go sticking RCDs Willy Nilly all over the shop, If as you mention the garage CU has an RCD then you will be covered. More than 1 RCD in the same circuit will only cause tripping problems.

 

[Octopus]

Arrrgh you like raking up old coals

Old? The coals are permanently warm!

 

[Pete999]

Old? The coals are permanently warm!

NICEIC never off the burner, simmering in the background.

 

[Risteard]

In fairness to hightower there is certainly a train of thought that altering the protective device makes it no longer minor works (or suitable for a MEIWC) and that you are essentially creating a new circuit (although all/most of it has already been wired).

 

[Pete999]

Old? The coals are permanently warm!

NICEIC never off the burner, simmering in the background.

In fairness to hightower there is certainly a train of thought that altering the protective device makes it no longer minor works (or suitable for a MEIWC) and that you are essentially creating a new circuit (although all/most of it has already been wired).

It's a difficult one this, although whilst I understand HT's thinking, it's still just an alteration, you could say you are creating a new circuit if you add, say 3 more twin sockets to a radial with just 1 original socket, I going to stick with MNWC, as an altered circuit, sorry HT.

 

[Midwest]

I wish you lot would get all emotional when I talk out my ****, as I often do

I seem to recall I made a similar blunder last year, on this very subject. Which resulted in outright commendation & derision (you took the mick). But least I had the strong moral character (get used to looking a ----), and post the reply back from my scheme (document #15)

 

[Pete999]

I wish you lot would get all emotional when I talk out my ****, as I often do

I seem to recall I made a similar blunder last year, on this very subject. Which resulted in outright commendation & derision (you took the mick). But least I had the strong moral character (get used to looking a ****), and post the reply back from my scheme (document #15)

When do you ever talk out of your backside?

 

[Midwest]

Quite often I wake up in the morning Pete, particularly at weekends, and can't remember making the remarks in a post from the night before.

I reckon someone's hacked my account and making spurious remarks. I think that's 'wear' or all those bad grammars things come from, that sparksburntout picks me up on.

 

[Pete999]

Quite often I wake up in the morning Pete, particularly at weekends, and can't remember making the remarks in a post from the night before.

I reckon someone's hacked my account and making spurious remarks. I think that's 'wear' or those bad grammars things come from, that sparksburntout picks me up on.

You're lucky, I sometimes can't remember what I said 5 minutes ago, who are you and what do you want?

 

[Midwest]

I'm constantly finding myself about to open my van door, with no idea what I'm supposed to be getting from within it

 

[Pete999]

I'm constantly finding myself about to open my van door, with no idea what I'm supposed to be getting from within it

Been there done that got the T shirt. haven't I? What are you asking me for? I dunno.

 

[telectrix]

xcuse my ignerrrence, but wat is a forum?

 

[happysteve]

GN3 p110 gives an example of an MEIWC being used when replacing a circuit breaker with an RCBO of the same rating (as well as some lighting points being added to the circuit in the example). If I was changing the rating or type of the OCPD, I personally would use an EIC but I can see the argument for using a MEIWC. Converting a radial circuit to an RFC, I would definitely use an EIC.

 

[Pete999]

xcuse my ignerrrence, but wat is a forum?

a forum - Bing - https://www.bing.com/search?q=a+forum&pc=MOZI&form=MOZSBR

 

[Pete999]

GN3 p110 gives an example of an MEIWC being used when replacing a circuit breaker with an RCBO of the same rating (as well as some lighting points being added to the circuit in the example). If I was changing the rating or type of the OCPD, I personally would use an EIC but I can see the argument for using a MEIWC. Converting a radial circuit to an RFC, I would definitely use an EIC.

Why? you would be altering or adding to an existing circuit, making work for yourself there Steve, sorry but I disagree with your logic on the Radial to Ring scenario.

 

[Octopus]

Why, why, why would any one bother with an EIC when a MWC would do............ are you mad.............

 

[Pete999]

Why, why, why would any one bother with an EIC when a MWC would do............ are you mad.............

No comment. I plead the 5th amendment, or should that be the 3rd, anyway Steve obviously has his reasons, who am I to question that, either way it's certified, but I agree with you , WHY.

 

[Octopus]

No comment.

we know you are!

 

[Pete999]

we know you are!

Scary

 

[happysteve]

Why? you would be altering or adding to an existing circuit, making work for yourself there Steve, sorry but I disagree with your logic on the Radial to Ring scenario.

Hi Pete, obviously it goes without saying that there's no problem at all with disagreeing, I was very clear in saying it's what I would do, not what others should do!

My reasoning for not using a MEIWC for converting a radial to an RFC is that the current minor works form does not include space for the details for the proper testing of RFCs... although... I suppose you could say that if you're adding another socket to an RFC (extending the ring, not adding a spur) you would need to confirm r1, r2 and rn as well; and I guess you could always write it elsewhere on the form. Just generally looking at what the stated purpose of a MEIWC is, and the examples given, make me think that the two examples stated - changing the OCPD for one of a different type or rating, or converting a radial to a ring - fall outside the intended scope. It's not something I feel strongly about what other people do at all. If someone said, "I'd happily use a MEIWC for converting a radial to a ring," I'd say, "Fair enough, up to you."

I note the new MEIWC in the 18th Edition draft for public consultation includes extra bits you need to put in, including r1, r2 and rn. The changes have not been popular with those commenting!

I agree with the principle of not making extra work for yourself. Perhaps as I gain more experience my views will change on this matter.

 

[davesparks]

My reasoning for not using a MEIWC for converting a radial to an RFC is that the current minor works form does not include space for the details for the proper testing of RFCs

There isn't anywhere on the MEIWC to record any continuity of CPC readings, there is only a tick box to confirm that the test has been carried out with a satisfactory result.
Just because there isn't a designated space to write the results it doesn't mean you can't carry out the test!

There is a big blank space where you could record such information if you so,wished however.

 

[Ian1981]

There isn't anywhere on the MEIWC to record any continuity of CPC readings, there is only a tick box to confirm that the test has been carried out with a satisfactory result.
Just because there isn't a designated space to write the results it doesn't mean you can't carry out the test!

There is a big blank space where you could record such information if you so,wished however.

View attachment 37613

Perhaps he uses the niceic model forms which have a R1+R2 box to record your results and also a R2 box