In defence of the short course trainee

[richy3333]

I don't necessary disagree with you Eng54, but forum members constantly banging on about it here and it does no good to anyone with all this negativity.

I saw a 2 year old CU fitted by a 'competitor' last week. This chaps got 40 years experience 'man and boy'. The board is not to 17th Ed, heck the board wasn't even new when he fitted it as its populated with parts from 3 differant manufacturers. It was barely held onto the wall and had cover fixing screws missing. No labelling and no certificate. He certainly wasn't a Electrical Trainee. Transpires he still hasn't done his 17th update and isn't with a scheme provider etc. No one's checking his work except me when I get to rectify the faults.

So there's good and bad in all aspects of the industry?

To end on a positive note - at least some of these Electrical Trainee are asking questions on here rather than just blindly undertaking work (yes I know there are others that don't and I also appreciate they might not be of a sufficient standard to do the work they are asking about, but at least they are asking).

 

[mechelec]

Experience comes with time that is why apprenticeships were 4 or 5 years. If the industry thought it could train competant electricians in 5 weeks and send them out on their own making the company money, dont you think they would have done????
Companies spend thousands training appreticies and lose valuable time when they are at college. if it could be done in 5 weeks they would do it it is common sense. IT CANT BE DONE. industry knows it, experienced electricians know it, the part p assesors must know it but pass them anyway (money) and the poor suckers who spend thousands only to end up on here asking basic questions must quickly realise it to.
Part P has given the cowboys and chancers a way to look legitimate in a minimum amount of time. Joe public, well the few who know about part P look to these people and trust them as they are part of a scheme.
If only they knew the questions these Electrical Trainee have to ask on here it makes me shudder to think of the quality and safety of some of the work.

 

[Engineer54]

I don't necessary disagree with you Eng54, but forum members constantly banging on about it here and it does no good to anyone with all this negativity.

I saw a 2 year old CU fitted by a 'competitor' last week. This chaps got 40 years experience 'man and boy'. The board is not to 17th Ed, heck the board wasn't even new when he fitted it as its populated with parts from 3 differant manufacturers. It was barely held onto the wall and had cover fixing screws missing. No labelling and no certificate. He certainly wasn't a Electrical Trainee. Transpires he still hasn't done his 17th update and isn't with a scheme provider etc. No one's checking his work except me when I get to rectify the faults.

So there's good and bad in all aspects of the industry?

To end on a positive note - at least some of these Electrical Trainee are asking questions on here rather than just blindly undertaking work (yes I know there are others that don't and I also appreciate they might not be of a sufficient standard to do the work they are asking about, but at least they are asking).

What don't you agree with ??

 

[imago]

So there's good and bad in all aspects of the industry?

It's always been that way I'm afraid, and no amount of schemes, governing bodies, regulation or assessments wil cure the problem completely. It could be massively improved with rigorous enforcement of the regulations and standards, along with properly structured training for those new to the trades. Unfortunately everyone from the governing bodies, through training providers, right up to the government departments responsible are only interested in numbers and revenue.

 

[Knobhead]

See if you can get a local part peer to work with,just to get some experience lol

You will learn about not exporting pme,rod depths.Unusually high Zs on TT systems,earthing plastic water pipes and how to condemn fuse boards as well
After a few weeks any faults you come across,you can post them up on here

I’d rather put my fingers in a food mincer.

But having said that if I was still working I would love to have an apprentice with me. I’ve spent hours going through faults with a lad / laddet and enjoyed every minute of it. One of the most inquisitive was a girl, she wanted answers there and then!

 

[Engineer54]

I’d rather put my fingers in a food mincer.

But having said that if I was still working I would love to have an apprentice with me. I’ve spent hours going through faults with a lad / laddet and enjoyed every minute of it. One of the most inquisitive was a girl, she wanted answers there and then!

Don't they ALL!! lol!!!

 

[Specialist]

Experience comes with time that is why apprenticeships were 4 or 5 years. If the industry thought it could train competant electricians in 5 weeks and send them out on their own making the company money, dont you think they would have done????
Companies spend thousands training appreticies and lose valuable time when they are at college. if it could be done in 5 weeks they would do it it is common sense. IT CANT BE DONE. industry knows it, experienced electricians know it, the part p assesors must know it but pass them anyway (money) and the poor suckers who spend thousands only to end up on here asking basic questions must quickly realise it to.
Part P has given the cowboys and chancers a way to look legitimate in a minimum amount of time. Joe public, well the few who know about part P look to these people and trust them as they are part of a scheme.
If only they knew the questions these Electrical Trainee have to ask on here it makes me shudder to think of the quality and safety of some of the work.

:hurray: Totally agree with you, but as has been said: there are an awful lot of supposedly Skilled & Qualifed sparks out there doing Diabolical work as well. They're all Degrading the Industry & it's skills not Just the Electrical Trainee.

 

[malcolmsanford]

Imago my man that is the nail well and truly hit.

In my mind these courses are for you guys that have had training, experience in the industry but want to change tact and do another area, you have the under pinning knowledge to be able to use what you learn, interpret it and use the new skills to augment your existing, and good on you for that.

My last real course I did was my PV course, now to be honest I learnt very little, in fact nothing electrically, but did learn roofing skills and such that i never had, but because of my electrical training the electrical side was easy and it augmented my existing skills.

I don't care if your a doctor, baker shoe maker or candle stick maker, you will never ever, be electrically competent in 5 weeks, 10 weeks or however long it is, if you do not understand why things happen, why if you get this, what gets you this and if you don''t get this what do I do next, to make sure it is safe.

For Electrical Trainee course achievers read " A little knowledge is dangerous" , they are sold a dream of qualifying into an industry that basically is now in it's death throes, because governments, companies, Trade schemes et al have undersold us, they have treated the industry with contempt and now decided it is time to kill it off completely by making the public believe that anyone with 5 weeks training can be competent in it.

I'm sorry if this upsets forum members, I think my record shows i'm not an argumentative person or someone that is aloof , but I have worked for many years in this industry, I have loved my work and it's like seeing a member of my family being striped of it's dignity and being killed off slowly, by organisations that just don't give a dam.

 

[Octopus]

What is amazing is that the 5 week courses don't include any "coal face" experience at all.

At the very least C & G should add a minimum period of hands on work to be mandatory with their qualifications, and the Part P providers should insist on this too.

 

[JD6400]

I have in the past semi defended the Electrical Trainee posters that have taken a good slating for asking a question , we all need to learn somewhere , but i do still feel exactly like you Malcolm .
Perfectly said !

 

[mechelec]

:hurray: Totally agree with you, but as has been said: there are an awful ot of supposedly Skilled & Qualifed sparks out there doing Diabolical work as well.

As has been previously mentioned you will get good and bad in all trades and walks of life. I would say though that percentage wise there are more good apprentice trained electricians carrying out good work with a thorough basic understanding of what they are doing than Electrical Trainee. It is common sense, there is no argument.
This will go on and on. You cannot defend this system of producing Electrical Trainee (I will not call them electricians as they are not)

 

[malcolmsanford]

I don't necessary disagree with you Eng54, but forum members constantly banging on about it here and it does no good to anyone with all this negativity.

I saw a 2 year old CU fitted by a 'competitor' last week. This chaps got 40 years experience 'man and boy'. The board is not to 17th Ed, heck the board wasn't even new when he fitted it as its populated with parts from 3 differant manufacturers. It was barely held onto the wall and had cover fixing screws missing. No labelling and no certificate. He certainly wasn't a Electrical Trainee. Transpires he still hasn't done his 17th update and isn't with a scheme provider etc. No one's checking his work except me when I get to rectify the faults.

So there's good and bad in all aspects of the industry?

To end on a positive note - at least some of these Electrical Trainee are asking questions on here rather than just blindly undertaking work (yes I know there are others that don't and I also appreciate they might not be of a sufficient standard to do the work they are asking about, but at least they are asking).

Think we may have to start referring to this type of "electrician" as the "Dr Shipman".

He was a fully trained doctor, same as some of our fully trained "electricians"

 

[Specialist]

Mech: As i've already said, I totally agree with you. I don't understand where you got the idea I was defending Electrical Trainee or Part Pee, I hate them both with a passion. They're Destroying an Industry that I used to proud to be a part of, nowadays I seriously wonder if there's any point in being a part of it anymore. As for there being more Electrical Trainee out there doing duff work, there's no argument from me. But i think that's changeing, from what i've seen there's a lot of Sparks out there who are starting to think well if they can get away with doing a fast in out crap job & get paid for it why should'nt I. Not the right way of thinking but it seems to be happening.

 

[mechelec]

Mech: As i've already said, I totally agree with you. I don't understand where you got the idea I was defending Electrical Trainee or Part Pee, I hate them both with a passion. They're Destroying an Industry that I used to proud to be a part of, nowadays I seriously wonder if there's any point in being a part of it anymore. As for there being more Electrical Trainee out there doing duff work, there's no argument from me. But i think that's changeing, from what i've seen there's a lot of Sparks out there who are starting to think well if they can get away with doing a fast in out crap job & get paid for it why should'nt I. Not the right way of thinkig but it seems to be happening.

I agree with you there, I have seen a gradual reduction in work quality in general but that has got more to do with economics than skills. Everyone is competing for less and less work and corners are getting cut. It is not right I know but when you need to stay afloat sometimes it must be tempting for some. So as an industry the last thing we need is to be flooded with more unskilled competition, driving standards even lower.
It is not just work standards either I thinks some of the materials are poorer quality lately.

 

[Big n Daft]

I had a go at another trade and found it to be difficult. Sure I could do the job until something went wrong and the snowball started rolling down the hill, then I too had to ask the man who knows what he's doing and why. So I have been the Electrical Trainee at another trade. My answer to anybody that asks stupid questions, while considering themselves qualified, has hardened to bugger off and do what you know or get proper training then ask.
Electrical Trainee in trades that just make a mess of it is fine. Electrical Trainee in trade that can kill people or set fire to buildings is not.
That folks is the crux of the matter. these salesmen treat our trade the same as a painter. Not many painters have the ability to kill if they dont paint a door frame properly. I think you get my drift now, nuff said.

 

[Big n Daft]

"It is not just work standards either I thinks some of the materials are poorer quality lately."

Dont get me started on that subject:83:

 

[GLENNSPARK]

I know this has been discussed before but I would like to give my own perspective on the issue of the 5 week wonders which seems to cause much wailing and gnashing of teeth.

3 years ago, at the age of 40, with the prospect of looming redundancy and not having any viable skills in the real world (air traffic control background since the age of 17) I read the glossy advertising and the slick sales patter and signed up for a Part P course. After finishing the course it is only then that you start to realise the vast gaps in your knowledge and experience. In my case I quickly signed up with Elecsa and could have started out on my own, however, I wasn't comfortable and found a local sparky who was happy to use me on an occasional basis which is still the case today. The point being I was in a position where I didn't have to pay a mortgage, feed kids etc etc. Most of the people who sign up for these courses are using an opportunity to learn a new skill and hopefully make some money, sometimes out of necessity due to redundancy etc.

I realise that some of the threads have you slapping your heads in frustration but generally they are well intentioned questions posed by people trying to expand their knowledge. The tone of some of the replies are distinctly hostile and if anything is going to stop people asking questions then it is that, surely it's better to have someone asking a stupid question but getting a sensible reply than not asking at all and potentially going off and putting their own or someone elses life in danger.

The system is flawed I agree, but as an outsider prior to signing up for a quick course you have absolutely no idea how much there is to learn, looking around a normal house at the sockets and lights you think 'well how difficult can it be?'. The answer is very, but the majority of us are well intentiond and have simply taken advantage of an opportunity.

Thanks for reading

yeah??....Well for a short course quick route "sparky" (no chance)....to come in here and ask "what size MCBs to use"...for some flats........as i saw the other day........typical 5 week wonder stuff......:nonod:

 

[DNS1]

I'm a guilty one I'm afraid (although I have the sense not to touch the £8k training centres!)

BUT...

- I've been reading and learning the regs for MONTHS (even though I've not even booked the course yet)
- I've got just about every tool known to man and years of experience using them
- I've got years of experience with building work, plumbing, general house-bashing etc
- I've got a background of mathematics and engineering, so the calculations are second nature to me
- I accept that once I've got the qualifications I will still have a lot to learn
- I am not expecting a part P registration to be the be all and end all. I plan to get the 2391, 2330 etc, as soon as circumstances allow.

The point is, please please please don't tar us all with the same brush.

There is a HUGE difference between someone like myself (and many others on here) and someone who turns up at a training centre never having seen an insulated screwdriver or the inside of a junction box.

 

[DNS1]

yeah??....Well for a short course quick route "sparky" (no chance)....to come in here and ask "what size MCBs to use"...for some flats........as i saw the other day........typical 5 week wonder stuff......:nonod:

To be honest, that's more the fault of the training provider and C&G than the person. Surely the guy should have been taught how to look up things in the 7671 green book himself and shouldn't have been awarded the 2382 until he was competent (regardless of whether that took 5 weeks, or 5 years).

 

[GLENNSPARK]

well...i felt like saying "put a 40A type D in...should be ok..lol....but then i suppose i would also have been irresponsible then......