No RCD

[telectrix]

try and make this as brief as poss. customer wants 4 extras sockets and 6 downlighters in bedroom. prob is, his CU is an old wylex 3036 8 way ,no RCD, and is going to be relocated and replaced when he has an extension built. it's in the back of a kitchen cupboard virtually impossible to work on. my idea is 1 x RCD/FCU in existing upstairs lighting circuit for downlights. 2 x RCD/FCUs one for each pair of sockets, tapped off the upstairs ring. 2.5 radial spur to each pair. Loading is light, TV and PC. Bedside lights etc. Anyone got a better solution. He doesn't want to replace the CU at this time, but when it is relocated. Earthing appears to be OK, but I will of course perform the usual tests, and do a MWC for the work I have done. Anyone got a better solution?

The 2 existing bedroom sockets would be diverted onto the RCD/FCUs

 

[Guest123]

Is it feasible to pull the ring out of the re-wireable and into a small 2 way enclosure housing an RCBO, fed from the now empty way in the re-wireable board???

 

[telectrix]

that would be an alternative, but as i said, the CU is right at the back of a corner unit. its a pain just to pull a fuse, let alone work on it lying half in a cupboard and having to climb in and out for tools. there is barely room to get head and shoulders in. And would have to put in 2 RCBOs, one for upstairs sockets and one for upstairs lights, hoping landing light is not split between both lighting circuits

 

[sjm]

Just a thought but would you need to RCD the lights? I presume that the bedroom has a light and switch and that you are merely changing the lights to downlighters. If this is the case your new wiring will be above the ceiling and not in a wall, therefore IMO your NEW work should meet BS7671 without an RCD, I'm sure someone will tell me I'm wrong though. Best option would probably be your first idea of 3 x RCD/FCUs.

 

[telectrix]

sjm, you are right if i was just changing the fitting for downlights, i think,,,,,, but customer wants the downlights2 way switched in 2 sets so i am going to have to chase in additional switch wiring, i.e. buried in wall, so RCD essential for 17th.

 

[SimpleSimon]

When you say FCU/RCD do you mean an RCD in a fused connection unit?
I'm not doubting, I've just never hears of this before and want to know if I'm right.

 

[SimpleSimon]

When you say FCU/RCD do you mean an RCD in a fused connection unit?
I'm not doubting, I've just never hears of this before and want to know if I'm right.

 

[telectrix]

exactly. a Fused con. unit incorporating RCD. looks like a single RCD socket without the plugoles

 

[Johno]

Think I would advise customer to wait until CU upgrade is possible to have work done, or dare I say (if you trust him) just do it and pray all is ok until CU is done.

I am waiting to be slagged off!

 

[telectrix]

he's having the bedroom replastered in the next 2 weeks.so it's got to be done pdq. the extension will be next year. i suggested board change and then move new board next year, but he don't want that yet, and even a sewer rat would have trouble working on the board. was in a stupid place to start with, then they built a corner kitchen unit round it

 

[SimpleSimon]

Put an RCD into tails? Is the meter in the same space as the board I take it?
Hmm maybe your FCU/RCD is best idea, it's not a bad idea at all.
However, how much circuit cable for the sockets will be left unprotected ie how much would be downstream from thr RCD that's still susceptible to mechanical damage? Would it still be compliant?

 

[telectrix]

all sockets in bedroom would be RCD/FCU, spurred off existing ring, which is non RCD. so technically would be better to RCBO or RCD at/adjacent to board as per Lenny's post. the jury's still out on that. i have not come to a firm decision yet.

 

[martysparky]

Is that actually a problem if the RCDFCU is located adjacent to the socket you spur from as the small amount of feed cable will be protected inside the accessories or behind them.

 

[Johno]

If the CU is getting changed soon then you don't want an RCD/FCU on the circuit, let alone on a newly decorated bedroom wall. IMO you have to explain the situation to the customer as best you can to make him understand the situation you are in. Unless of course you are not involved in the future work, in which case just bang it on and do an minor works and get payed!

 

[Deleted member 9648]

If you take the view that lack of rcd protection on a temporary basis is not going to cause a hazard you could note it as a deviation on the cert and state that the CU is to be upgraded in the near future....reasons why-
1. The sockets being in a bedroom are not likely to supply equipment outdoors
2.No other sockets in the property are protected so it is pointless just protectiing the bedroom ones
3.The lights will not require rcd protection other than buried cables....but-
4.No other buried cables are protected in the property so there is little to be gained by just protecting one switch drop.

Not necessarily my view but it is a view that could be taken!!

 

[telectrix]

thanks for that. that is a nice get out if i can get away with it. was my first thought. just modify the bedroom circuits and code 2 the lack of RCDs, noting that the work has been done on the understanding that it is non-compliant pending the upgrade of the CU

 

[Sav]

Morning chaps,
I dont know if you get the "Professional Electrician" every month, but inside the Sept issue, there is a section of amendments that MAY be put forward with regards to BS7671.
One of them is Protection for Safety, Chapter 41, reg 411.3.3 regardding addtional protection.

Basically, any minor works associated with existing socket outlets circuits which have no RCD, should not require such protection where the designer (us) is satisfied that there would be no increased risk from those works.

So, you could have 2 houses in same street,both have minor work on socket outlets, one electrician puts in RCD protection and charges accordingly, the other says its safe as it is !!

What ever next !!
Have a great and safe day everyone,

Sav

 

[malcolmsanford]

Your doing a PIR as well then Telectrix?

If your going to note departures from the regs as in 120.3 and note it on the EIC I would be very careful and hope nothing happens in beween. The sockets will be of use to ordinary persons intended for general use and so falls under the reg 411.3.3(i) and you will have to prove by omitting your installtion of that reg it is making it safer.

It goes again with the same for the lights you are fitting and burying cable in the wall. You will be departing from reg 522.6.6 and will have to prove if anything happens, that by omitting this regualtion you are making the installation safer.

 

[malcolmsanford]

Morning chaps,
I dont know if you get the "Professional Electrician" every month, but inside the Sept issue, there is a section of amendments that MAY be put forward with regards to BS7671.
One of them is Protection for Safety, Chapter 41, reg 411.3.3 regardding addtional protection.

Basically, any minor works associated with existing socket outlets circuits which have no RCD, should not require such protection where the designer (us) is satisfied that there would be no increased risk from those works.

So, you could have 2 houses in same street,both have minor work on socket outlets, one electrician puts in RCD protection and charges accordingly, the other says its safe as it is !!

What ever next !!
Have a great and safe day everyone,

Sav

Great post Sav, just what is happening here now. Why all of a sudden are the NICEIC and such saying that as electricians we can pick and choose what regs we like and don't like.

To me reg 411.3.3 is not open to interpretation as it gives examples for what is required and then exemptions to those requirements, so pretty cut and dried. I think we are going down a pretty dangerous road with this. I would not like to be standing in a court of law one day trying to convince a judge that I decided that the regs were not applicable and my was is better.

 

[telectrix]

thanks to all for your useful posts. on consideration, i think i will go down this route: divert both ring main and lighting circiuts from existing 3036, into separate enclosure comprising 2 x RCBOs, one for each cct. this would mean my work complies . just hope landing light not got borrowed neutral! the 2 RCBOs can be re-used in new board when upgrade is done.