Discuss open ring to radials on con unit changes in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

P

peanutty

Hi all, whats people views on best practice when finding open/damaged rings when changing consumer units. Obviously sort it is first option but what when customer doesn't want/can't have floor lifted to replace a damaged cable and surface mounting isn't an option. I like to put on different rcd's on 16/20A Mcb's as two radials. any views?
 
Hi all, whats people views on best practice when finding open/damaged rings when changing consumer units. Obviously sort it is first option but what when customer doesn't want/can't have floor lifted to replace a damaged cable and surface mounting isn't an option. I like to put on different rcd's on 16/20A Mcb's as two radials. any views?

The only comment I would have about that is obviously you will end up with two circuits, if both circuits are fairly evenly loaded then not a problem but if you ended up with say best part of a kitchen on a 20 amp you could end up with nuisance tripping. I think really its a bit of common sense but technically there is no problem as long as all of your Zs readings etc etc are all ok
 
Problem is, if you don't know where the break is, how do you know that you're not leaving a dangerous situation?
Most of the "breaks" I've come across have ended up being nails or screws through a board or wall severing the L or N but not touching the cpc. You then often end up with something live hidden away.
Find it and sort it, that's my opinion.
 
What I was just going to say ^

If you are not lifting the floor, how are you making a broken ring circuit safely into two radials ? You have to find the damaged piece of cable to separate it into two radials anyway, so while you are there just repair the ring.
 
It's why you always test the installation before you start work replacing existing CU's...

As far as splitting a Ring Circuits when a problem or problems have been found, i'd take notice of Guitarist (post #3) and Andy (post #4) or you could end up finding yourself deep in the proverbial Smelly stuff!! ...lol!!
 
Totally agree with the guys , never just assume you can split them up , always find the fault , I have worked on circuits where faults have been bypassed leaving potentially dangerous conditions , 90% of the time the fault is within a socket ,fused spur etc just start looking if they have central heating look behind the radiators to that was where I found an open circuit on a ring
 
These threads, done time and time again shows how dam stupid some installers are.

If there is a problem on a RFC then locate it and fix it.

All quotes for CU changes need to include a caveat outlining such situations. Mine says:

"NB: If problems are detected during the fuseboard change additional work may be required. Such issues and associated costs will be discussed with you, prior to being implemented"

As for splitting it into 2 radials - well, yes you can do this, BUT you HAVE to locate the offending issue and isolate first......
 
As for splitting it into 2 radials - well, yes you can do this, BUT you HAVE to locate the offending issue and isolate first......

Exactly!
Also, in my experience, if you say to the customer "I have discovered a fault which is potentially dangerous and must be sorted", the vast majority will say "Do what you need to do then".
If, on the other hand, you say "I have discovered a fault and it could really do with being sorted, but I can get around it by moving cables about", then you know what the answer will be...
 
To convert to radials obviously the break needs finding first at 2 sockets, i would never just assume anything. I always test first thats how i know theres a problem!!! Its what would others do if customer doesn't what to pay or cant disrupte property. Never assume anything. Thats what testings for.
 
And you matey will be looking at a ban if you don't tone down your rants.

Your only option is a 20A MCB and a good note on the EIC then.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Didn't realise you were the only person allowed to insult people!!
To be clear heres what i do in these rare cases. Do my figure of 8 continuity tests, ir ln-e and l-n if certain all loads removed. Now know if a fault is present. Investigate fault. Identify damaged leg of ring main cable, is cable between 2bedroom sockets for example that have wooden/laminated flooring. Customer won't have this lifted and won't have surface mounted or along outside of wall. Drop sockets on this circuit to be sure cable sizes are ok. Refit sockets.R1+r2. Ir.decide on 16 or 20A, install con unit, note on cert.
also i like putting on separate rcd's incase there is a badly installed hidden switch somewhere that may link radials back together if operated allowing to much current for cables. Rcd's would trip if this happened through in balance.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Ill give you an example of a ring main fault I came across a while ago this will reflect the concerns of the members im sure they are not having a go but just trying to help , as you, a consumer unit upgade , did the initial testing found open circuit on what appeared to be a ring main changed the board tested all the other ciruits and came back to the ring , so doing the basic visual tests as you would during an EICR opening up a few sockets all had 2 cables in I did end up taking off every socket in the house only a small bedroom so not to difficult what looked like to radials was infact a ring main ,the testing of both of the ring cables made it look like radials , insulation readings at 500 volt was above 500M so all appeared to be radials , so testing using the r1r2 I went round each socket testing till it went open circuit did this on each leg both stopped in the lounge , how it happened im not sure but one leg of the cable was cut in half enclosed in the wall under the capping , how I eventually found it was be tracing the cables in the loft as they all dropped down , I could see the link between the sockets but there was no continuity , so I just pulled the cable out of the capping and at the socket in the lounge pulled the other end of the leg out of the capping at the socket , luck was on my side as I managed to pull a new leg down the capping JB'd it in the loft and ring was back in action , another one I found was two cables coiled up in a back box never connected been like it for over 40 years so you can see the reasons ill post a pic of a cable after lights were lost and a spark just connected up the circuit from a ring main via a fused spur this will high light why you need to find the fault
 

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