pub/resturant dimming advice

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Robertbaker63

Robertbaker63

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Hi

I'm Rewiring a pub/resturant complex and the owner would like to have dimmable led lighting thoughout inside

it'll be a mixture of the jcc led 7's tiltable and tracklighting with pendants with either an 8w or 11w dimmable led bulb in hovering over the tables

the'll be around 140 lights in total and all lights will be switched from behind the bar

there will also be ground uplights outside, i have pulled out a 1.5mm 2 core armoured to supply some walk over uplights leading up to the entrance ( about a 25m run) how many can i safely put on this if i use an led uplight on a 6 or 10 amp rcbo?

there will be car park lights and driveway lights, i have run a 2.5mm armoured for these, how many can i safely put on without tripping an rcbo, the first light is a run of 30m aromoured, if i were to carry on all the way to the entrance it would be an 80m run to the last light


how many should i allow on each dimmer, i'm presuming about 6-8?

should i go for one bank of 24 grid dimmers or should i go for 6 banks of 4?


many thanks, sorry about my inexperiance with led lighting, whenever i've installed in a domestic install i've stuck to 10 jcc led on a circuit max
 
phil d said:
when you ran your armoureds did you take volt drop into account?
Click to expand...


small fib, i didn't run the armoured out, they supply the existing outside lighting and i'd like to reuse them if i can. if they are not suitable for the amount of lights the owner wants to install then i'll have to run more/larger.

there are no plans, just someone trying to reift a country pub on a budget
 
you should be able to fit a lot more than 6-8 LEDs on 1 dimmer. find out the max. loading on a suitable dimmer and calculate from that. if, say the max. is 300watt, then you can put 30 8watt LEDs on 1 dimmer without overloading it. 24 dimmers is stupid.
 
i don't really want to put 30 lights on one dimmer as i'd like to give more control to the pub manager to create various moods, i was looking to dim each track individually and the way it works out is that there is never more than 6 tables under a length of track. i asked the wholesaler rep who came out and he was the one who told me 6 11w led bulbs or 8 8w led bulbs is what he'd reccomend for each dimmer which i thought was a bit conservative
i'm going for jcc for most things but i have alot of led colour strips in various locations, could anyone reccomend me a good reliable make ?

thanks rob
 
Robertbaker63 said:
i also thought that jcc state no more than 15 of their led 7s on a normal circuit as it will trip a breaker on start up?
Click to expand...

Cant say I've ever read that anywhere, or herd of LEDs running high start up currents...

Does not sound like you would need RCD protection on armoured cable to outside lights (in a commercial premisses as well) either
 
yep, sod the |RCD on the SWA> just a possible source of tripping.
 
Forget grid dimmers, consider a integrated dimmer pack, more reliable and better controls, and will dim up to 10a per channel instead of 400w!!

Also most grid pots will not dim LED's !! But dimmer packs will, I'll come back and post a link.
 
i was going to use a control gear boards with rcbos for each circuit as their rcbos are only about a tenner each from denmans rather than a hager or merlin gerin board where the rcbos are 25-30 pounds each

i haven't used one but i think control gear do a 12 way 3 phase board which i could convert to single phase, i have 200 amp 2 phase coming into the building, the kitchen and games rooms are having seperate submains. the kitchen hasn't been specced yet but im hoping its mainly gas appliances
 
why would you say that?

i haven't had any problems in a domestic situation, fitted hundreds of the new boards, 90 quid for a 14 way board with 8 rcbos from denmans and loads of space to do a neat job, good quality plastic, breakers line up quite well on the din rail. never had an rcbo faulty?
 
Rako do good dimming solutions that can be set to 4 presets.

And as many dimming circuits as your wallet allows.

Dimming packs are wireless so you save in time and cable.
 
i like the idea of using dimmer packs, i run alot of stage lighting cables in so i probably should know alot more about them but i didn't think of them in a building,

i've run a 1.5 t +e from all the track positions and downlights in bunches of 6-8 back to the bar which backs on to the mains boards anyway, i have plenty of space for dimmer packs. i'm surprised neither devondale, denmans or city have suggested going that way to me when they came out to quote for the job
 
Ok,

This is the link, click on the link and you will see a further link for the product range, all the cribs are self explan.

The idea is you fit one of these packs, put a sp or tpn supply to it and connect all of your lighting circuits to the individual outputs. The smaller ones will run 10a per Chanel and the bigger ones will do 6a per chanel.

Once fitted you can then set 10 different scenes.

I can't tell you how good this stuff is!!!

http://www.modelighting.co.uk/index3.asp?sideid=1&id=576&set=2
 
High Tower said:
Ok,

This is the link, click on the link and you will see a further link for the product range, all the cribs are self explan.

The idea is you fit one of these packs, put a sp or tpn supply to it and connect all of your lighting circuits to the individual outputs. The smaller ones will run 10a per Chanel and the bigger ones will do 6a per chanel.

Once fitted you can then set 10 different scenes.

I can't tell you how good this stuff is!!!

++ Mode Lighting ++
Click to expand...

agree with above superb bits of kit and any problems the technical guys are great over the phone. brilliant for pubs and restaurants and clubs
 
you can control dmx from a pc, you can also have external controller
simple 16 channel one
107942.jpg

up to 512 channels or even more
501176178_565.jpg

i wish i can get out of domestic mess and have some dmx job one day
 
High Tower said:
Dmx is NOT suitable for this application. We do a lot of dmx for clubs, it's no good for this
Click to expand...

yeah thanks, i know all about dmx from doing alot of concerts, i do alot of promotions and events so quite often do alot of stage lighting where you have all your led pars, strobes, floods, moving heads etc and they all have a 13amp plug and daisy chain all xlr cables in and out of everything and back to a controller, then a get a geek friend to do all the dip switches and program the panel for me to play with during the bands
 
High Tower said:
Dmx is NOT suitable for this application. We do a lot of dmx for clubs, it's no good for this
Click to expand...

Why not? I used dmx dimmers before and they do the job where ever you need some lights dimmed, makes job tidy and expandable, no need to run x of different switch lines.
 
amlu said:
Why not? I used dmx dimmers before and they do the job where ever you need some lights dimmed, makes job tidy and expandable, no need to run x of different switch lines.
Click to expand...

Do you understand how and what DMX does?. Please dont take this the wrong way but you really must have mis understood the brief.

DMX is a control circuit that utalises XLR cables to send signals to addresses, DMX is normally used to control colours and sequences. There is nothing about DMX that will effectively dim and control large numbers of halogen lighting as is required here. The kind of dimmer pack as shown in the Mode link is designed exactly for this application, hence the heavy duty dimmer cards shown, a feature not found in dmx controllers.
 
if DMX works onstage to dim LED and high powered stage lighting than i cant see why it wouldnt work in the average pub !

what data signal does the Mode gear use to transfer data to and from its remote handsets to the dimmer pack ??
 
DMX systems are not really ideal for a pub resturant setting do you not think??, in a stage enviroment you have lighting jockeys running them, do you all not think that they are slightly over complicated.

The mode systems use a 10 button wall plate that use a 5v signal, 10 pre set scenes, one button operation.

I installed a mode pack in a bar and resturant and DMX to run all the LED in the night club upstairs. can you guess which system none of the satff or management can get their heads around??

where would you put the controls? on the bar??, also DMX units require seperate drivers/dimmers, so why wouldnt you just spec a single piece unit?
 
High Tower said:
DMX systems are not really ideal for a pub resturant setting do you not think??, in a stage enviroment you have lighting jockeys running them, do you all not think that they are slightly over complicated.

The mode systems use a 10 button wall plate that use a 5v signal, 10 pre set scenes, one button operation.

I installed a mode pack in a bar and resturant and DMX to run all the LED in the night club upstairs. can you guess which system none of the satff or management can get their heads around??

where would you put the controls? on the bar??, also DMX units require seperate drivers/dimmers, so why wouldnt you just spec a single piece unit?
Click to expand...

I would use a simple controller, like the one I mentioned before. It has 16 faders, can be programmed one for each channel. Once is programmed all they have to is set them to setting they like. Dont have to be light jockey to do it.

I would put it somewhere behind the bar. Maybe next to a PA control if the venue has got one.
Dimmers can form a daisy chain, using couple of them it will save the installer hassle of running long live switchlines.
 
you can get simple 8 or more channel dimmer panels with just "simple" individual sliders for each channel and a master on / off slider. not all have the effects and chase functions

couldn't get much easier really, plus a lot cheaper than the fancy lutron gear.

if they only want dimming and not different set scene / mood controls then DMX dimming would be perfect.
 
High Tower said:
Do you understand how and what DMX does?. Please dont take this the wrong way but you really must have mis understood the brief.

DMX is a control circuit that utalises XLR cables to send signals to addresses, DMX is normally used to control colours and sequences. There is nothing about DMX that will effectively dim and control large numbers of halogen lighting as is required here. The kind of dimmer pack as shown in the Mode link is designed exactly for this application, hence the heavy duty dimmer cards shown, a feature not found in dmx controllers.
Click to expand...

Please read my post before. I recommended using a DMX dimmers (4 outputs, up to 1000w each).
They have to be linked by DMX cables (yes the xlr ones) to a DMX controller.
 
amlu said:
Please read my post before. I recommended using a DMX dimmers (4 outputs, up to 1000w each).
They have to be linked by DMX cables (yes the xlr ones) to a DMX controller.
Click to expand...

"Easy as pie " to install, even works over cat5 cabling :)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Guys,

Im a big fan of DMX, i do a hell of a lot of it, and not only do i fit it but i can address it and program Showcad to run it, we do a lot of nightclubs, also we do a lot of LED accent lighting, the last one i did, we took up a whole wall in the coms room with the led drivers. and yes we use the small 4 chanel panels to control the accent lighting. i appreciate the pros and cons but no matter how simple you try to make it, a DMX system is still complicated, this isnt lutron this is uk made and is purpose designed for the application and is ideal for running house lights, thats not what DMX lends its self too.

the wall plate is a 1G plate with 10 simple buttons, bar staff come in, press one button for day time, one for evening etc etc
 
True, the rako controllers look like the tiger ones with just 4 scene settings and a master dim up/down and a on/off button

With Rako the setings are stored in the dimming packs if i remember rightly. so you could get a new switch out of a box and as long as you set the binary switches to the coreect number it'll carry on as you left off.
 
leading-edge-250w-in-line-dimmer.jpgThese are the packs. You just feed them then take the switch line out to the lights you want to control.


I used this system in a old manor house with wood panelled walls, so it meant no need to get cables down to the switches.

Worked really well.
 
For all the LED's (quite a number) I would go for a digital control solution which will let you set up the whole Bar Lighting control from the Touch screen Tills, as well as a laptop in the office, and a keypad on the wall.....and the fire alarm...

If the Pub owner would like cheap Micros or IBM touch screen Tills (like new, reconditioned) then drop me a PM, as I have done some maintenance work for a local company that specialises in the repair and sales of Cash registers and retail Electronics such as chip and pin etc...they do repairs for the whole of Europe and the Middle east for chains of well known Burger , Pizza restaurants and Coffee shops..I will give you the contact details of the manager there and you will have the choice of anything in the storage warehouse, this might help you with the Bar and Club side of things...
 
i would put 24 on a dimmer but i would spread them out as much as possible just incase a circuit has a problem. it would mean you could compensate with light from another dimmer if another failed
 
In my experience you should use an architectural dimming system like the tiger mentioned earlier by mod, off the top of my head.

* From a reliabilty point of view they are designed for 24*7 operation.
* They are extensable so should you need to control lights that need a signal (such as DSI, 0-10 or even DMX) rather that waveform modification you can do so (this is espically important with LEDs as modifiyed the mains power isn't a great way to dim them)
* From an "artistic" point of view, they can spend some time working of the various "looks" and know it'll be the same every night when they press the button (as opposed to staff doing as they feel)
* On failure, a DMX dimmer will either put all the channels to zero, hold the settings based on the last command or some really random stuff.
* architecural dimmers can have safety features such as a dry contact you can wire to the fire alarm that can used to bring all the lights to full brightness (or whatever)

Though wireless is nice, don't trust a "shared medium" use wires for the interconnects and a least one wired button panel.

Though computer intergration is also nice. make sure its an addition, not the only way.
 
Boys, boys..... there's so many half truths and myths in this thread with regards to DMX that I don't even know where to begin. At some point I'll actually get around to posting up the article on DMX which I've been writing for the forum over the last few months, but until I do.......

DMX is good for led control, heavy dimming and 101 other things irrelevant to this thread.

The OP asked about dimming for a zoned led system for ambient light in a pub. AKA an architectural lighting system, in which case that's exactly what's required and also needs to be kept very very simple in its operation and upkeep. Others have made some suggestions to manufacturers and these are all good. How those systems actually work is almost irrelevant (but many of them, I'd bet, are based on DMX internally). You don't need concert rigs, you don't need Dave's Dodgy Disco rig.

Ring up your wholesalers, tell them you're looking at an architectural lighting install and have them get the relevant manufacturers sales team come and inspect and quote. With any luck you'll end up more in profit and with some free training rather than running yourself ragged with half-baked solutions.
 
Rockingit said:
Boys, boys..... there's so many half truths and myths in this thread with regards to DMX that I don't even know where to begin. At some point I'll actually get around to posting up the article on DMX which I've been writing for the forum over the last few months, but until I do.......

DMX is good for led control, heavy dimming and 101 other things irrelevant to this thread.

The OP asked about dimming for a zoned led system for ambient light in a pub. AKA an architectural lighting system, in which case that's exactly what's required and also needs to be kept very very simple in its operation and upkeep. Others have made some suggestions to manufacturers and these are all good. How those systems actually work is almost irrelevant (but many of them, I'd bet, are based on DMX internally). You don't need concert rigs, you don't need Dave's Dodgy Disco rig.

Ring up your wholesalers, tell them you're looking at an architectural lighting install and have them get the relevant manufacturers sales team come and inspect and quote. With any luck you'll end up more in profit and with some free training rather than running yourself ragged with half-baked solutions.
Click to expand...

Perfect !
 
+1 for getting a specialist in

I think we have to be clear what an architectural lighting system is.

Firstly, it is about lighting in and around a building rather an entertainment context

Secondly it is designed for 24*7*365 unattended operation and it's cooling needs and without unreliable components such as fans, it is not the same a theatrical dimmer that has just been used for the task!

The only load controller I would want to rely on for unattended 24*7*365 is one that has been designed from the ground-up to do so and from a company with a long pedigree in it.

DMX is a great protocol but you have to understand its limitations which brings us back to the beginning, a specialist is needed.

Good luck
 
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