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Discuss rcd protection 17th edition in the Electrical Wiring, Theories and Regulations area at ElectriciansForums.net

W

wayne

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on the niceic FAQ page there is some explanation of the new regulations
one thing that jumped out at me was that a skilled or competent person has to be present . in larger commercial and industrial installations maintenance staff would suffice .am i reading this right, and this is the niceic
 
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M

MacSparky

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  • #2
As far as i know industrial and commercial are beyond the scope of niceic as they only have powers over domestic (setup for part p). For how long who knows:rolleyes:
 
S

Shakey

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  • #3
Both wrong chaps

firstly NIEIC are commercial, industrial and domestic (and even plumbing!)

Secondly im assuming you are talking about RCD's for s/o's less than 20A for use by ordrinary persons?

Not sure what spin NICEIC are putting on it, but ordrinary, skilled and instructed are now definitions in the 17th edition. However they are VERY subjective. Have look, it may answer your query
 
M

Mint

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upon reading the regs its states that the line conductors must be disconnected as a RCBO only disconnects the live a suggest that a RCBO would not be appropriate for compliance
 

ian.settle1

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Mentor
Arms
on the niceic FAQ page there is some explanation of the new regulations
one thing that jumped out at me was that a skilled or competent person has to be present . in larger commercial and industrial installations maintenance staff would suffice .am i reading this right, and this is the niceic
Does that mean the NICEIC are telling companies they have got to employ an electrician:eek:
 
S

Shakey

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  • #6
upon reading the regs its states that the line conductors must be disconnected as a RCBO only disconnects the live a suggest that a RCBO would not be appropriate for compliance
both the line and neutral are 'live'

the phase is now the line - hence the statement that the line conductor must be disconnected will be satisfied by an RCBO
 
W

wayne

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  • #7
i apologise for not making myself clear ill try again!!
with the new regs practically all circuits need to be on an rcd ,what the niceic seem to be saying is that you can ignore this if you've got maintenance staff
 
S

Shakey

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  • #8
Then the NIC are wrong (or you are mis understanding what they have said)

the only are where RCD's can be dispensed with, as i have said is the requirement for socket outlets of 20a or less for use by ordrinary persons. If you have skilled or instructed persons, the s/o's dont have to be on and RCD - BUT the cable supplying them (if buried less than 5 cm etc) will!
 
so rcd's don't have to be put on 20a or less socket outlets, when used by an ordinary person?

also the socket outlets used by skilled or instructed persons don't have to be rcd. but the cable suppling them if buried less than 50mm will?

No need for rcd protection on rings or radials if cables supplying them are in the safe zone 20a or less,

unless likely to be supplying outdoor equipment?

is there anything or everything wrong on the above statement???
 
S

Shakey

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so rcd's don't have to be put on 20a or less socket outlets, when used by an ordinary person?

also the socket outlets used by skilled or instructed persons don't have to be rcd. but the cable suppling them if buried less than 50mm will?

No need for rcd protection on rings or radials if cables supplying them are in the safe zone 20a or less,

unless likely to be supplying outdoor equipment?

is there anything or everything wrong on the above statement???
Absolutely wrong Luke!!!!!!

RCD's required for:-

s/o's of 20a or less for use by ordrinary persons (unless labelled for a specific purpose such as 'Freezer only')

s/o's up to 32A feeding equipment outdoors

Buried Cables in safe zones less than 50mm from the surface UNLESS earthed metallic protection provided


etc etc etc;)
 
W

wayne

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  • #12
Absolutely wrong Luke!!!!!!

RCD's required for:-

s/o's of 20a or less for use by ordrinary persons (unless labelled for a specific purpose such as 'Freezer only')

s/o's up to 32A feeding equipment outdoors

Buried Cables in safe zones less than 50mm from the surface UNLESS earthed metallic protection provided


etc etc etc;)
these three statements are correct (no distinction is made between circuits feeding s/o and lighting )
what was printed on the niceic FAQ wasthat if you have maintenance staff they are deemed competent and rcd protection was'nt needed take a look!!!!
 
S

Shakey

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  • #13
these three statements are correct (no distinction is made between circuits feeding s/o and lighting )
what was printed on the niceic FAQ wasthat if you have maintenance staff they are deemed competent and rcd protection was'nt needed take a look!!!!
Yes Wayne, for the SOCKET OUTLETS, but the cable supplying them may still need RCD protection REGARDLESS of whether maintenance staff are present;)

And quite frankly, the NIC say a lot of things, personally, i follow what BS7671 says.......

Luke, RCD's only required for S/O 's up to 20A unless feeding equipment oudoors. So a 32A BS4343 (BS EN 60309-2) inside wouldnt need one

Further to my last post, the maintenance staff bit is explained in 522.6.7

so: If the cable was under "the supervision of a skilled or instructed person" then you ccould omit an RCD for the cable protection. In my post i said 'may', so you have to interpret what is written, as you would the terms "skilled" or "instructed" persons!!!!

Hope this clarifies any confusion i may have caused (to myself!!)
 
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S

Sparky83

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  • #14
Further to my last post, the maintenance staff bit is explained in 522.6.7

so: If the cable was under "the supervision of a skilled or instructed person" then you ccould omit an RCD for the cable protection. In my post i said 'may', so you have to interpret what is written, as you would the terms "skilled" or "instructed" persons!!!!

I work as a maintenance electrician in a big office block, obviously there are sockets all over the place and we often have to add new one's and new circuits etc, What i want to know is, the above statement says that if the cable is under supervision of a skilled person (ie myself as an electrician) then it does not have to be RCD protected, is this correct? is there any reasons that this would not be the case? There is a number of sockets that are used by the staff of the building but are still under supervision of myself and the rest of the maintenance team but not directly as anything could be plugged into them when we are not around etc. Any help would be great.
 
S

Shakey

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  • #15
Further to my last post, the maintenance staff bit is explained in 522.6.7

so: If the cable was under "the supervision of a skilled or instructed person" then you ccould omit an RCD for the cable protection. In my post i said 'may', so you have to interpret what is written, as you would the terms "skilled" or "instructed" persons!!!!

I work as a maintenance electrician in a big office block, obviously there are sockets all over the place and we often have to add new one's and new circuits etc, What i want to know is, the above statement says that if the cable is under supervision of a skilled person (ie myself as an electrician) then it does not have to be RCD protected, is this correct? is there any reasons that this would not be the case? There is a number of sockets that are used by the staff of the building but are still under supervision of myself and the rest of the maintenance team but not directly as anything could be plugged into them when we are not around etc. Any help would be great.
well of course its all down to interpretation, if you have full time maintenance staff, then arguably everything is under the control of a skilled/instructed person

of course you have to combine it with everything else, i.e do they meet disconnection times, is it TT etc etc

but by the book, you would not HAVE to RCD protect, but you have to consider, would it be SAFER to?
 
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