RCD Quandary.

[telectrix]

basically, done a EICR for rental. 12 way wylex with 3871 MCBs, no RCD at all, so a few C2's and C3's. ideal world is a new CU with RCBOs, or even a dual RCD board. landlord won't pay more than necessary as it's a short term let and due to be demolished as soon as he gets planning for 2 houses on the land. upfront RCD would get rid of the "fails" on the installation, but 1 rogue circuit and the lot is dead. what would you do?

 

[loz2754]

Not that.

Either upgrade the consumer unit, as it could well be a long time before the property gets demolished, and the law is the law, and it cannot be let with C2s.

Or maybe (assuming RCBOs for this board are not available) run the circuits that need RCD protection through a separate enclosure with RCBOs in it.

 

[telectrix]

be hard enough getting the tight-arse to pay for an upfront RCD in enclosure. mention RCBOs and he has a heart wallet attack. the upfront RCD would get rid of the C2s so would make it safe for use, but non-compliant regarding division of circuits.

 

[Dustydazzler]

I hate fitting dual rcd boards but if the property is to be demolished in a few months time I would be inclined to by a second hand rcd board off eBay and fit that as a very temporary fix

you can pick up a dual rcd board for about 30 quid second hand

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your customer probably won’t like my Labour charge for doing it , but if it’s an easy swap then you can bill him half a day

 

[loz2754]

be hard enough getting the tight-arse to pay for an upfront RCD in enclosure. mention RCBOs and he has a heart wallet attack. the upfront RCD would get rid of the C2s so would make it safe for use, but non-compliant regarding division of circuits.

You asked what we would do.
If the owner is unwilling to pay to comply with a legal requirement, I'm off down the road to the next job...

 

[littlespark]

Even temporary supplies need to conform.
That’s what this would be.
Landlord spends the money, or he’s failed in ensuring the safety of his tenants.

he might be better not letting it out, and just wait until it’s demolished.

 

[timhoward]

A completely different way of looking at it - One day when he has new houses built (which he claims is soon) he will need a new consumer unit with rcd and probably spd protection to get past building control. No reason I can see that it can't be removed and preserved when demolition occurs.
Granted the labour costs of a board change are higher than an up front rcd but he has to suck that up as he's a landlord and responsible for his tenants safety.

 

[Intoelectrics]

If he wants his wedge of money for the rent then he should suck up what it will cost to make it compliant.

2 options in my mind, he pays for compliance or he doesn't rent out.

Option 3, which I suspect he would like to take, spend nowt, take a risk then blame someone else if it goes t**s up

Tel, walk away if he won't comply.

 

[UNG]

landlord won't pay more than necessary as it's a short term let and due to be demolished

So if it is necessary to fit a new CU then that is only paying for what is necessary. What does this landlord consider is the price is safety if an incident occurs and the legal bods appear a new CU will be the cheaper option

 

[Mikegh]

I don't work in the UK but my 2c

Upfront RCDs are a hazard imo


I don't even like the dual rcd boards , lighting and sockets shouldn't share an rcd

I would enforce my own standards on these situations

 

[telectrix]

right then it's £450 for a new CU, add my time and effort, another £300 - £350, end of the day, it's less than 2 month's rent.

 

[Dustydazzler]

right then it's £450 for a new CU, add my time and effort, another £300 - £350, end of the day, it's less than 1 month's rent.

if the guy is penny pinching just sling in a cheap screwfix special duo rcd board or buy one off ebay

 

[telectrix]

if the guy is penny pinching just sling in a cheap screwfix special duo rcd board or buy one off ebay

think that's what he'd go for a 13 way BG dual RCD board. but then he'd want it refitting in 1 of the new houses. not my problem. i'll be out of the game by then (assuming i'm still alive enough to be fed Theakstons by straw).

 

[timhoward]

think that's what he'd go for a 13 way BG dual RCD board. but then he'd want it refitting in 1 of the new houses. not my problem. i'll be out of the game by then (assuming i'm still alive enough to be fed Theakstons by straw).

In all seriousness I'd rather fit that £80 delight than nothing at all (once the knock-outs have been removed with dynamite)

 

[telectrix]

them rear knockouts are a gem. i finf a 2lb hammer and a sharp cold chisel the easiest.

 

[Dustydazzler]

4 inch bi metal hole saw

 

[telectrix]

4 inch bi metal hole saw

i want to get cables in, not a double decker bus.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Don't trust any landlord that says it's going to be a short term let, the amount of paperwork and certificates needed to rent out a domestic property now days make short term letting very unprofitable, its so easy for a Landlord to say "Oh there was some planning problems" and two years later they still have not been resolved, don't get suckered in, it's your signature on the EICR.

 

[pirate]

 

[7029 dave]

Landlords skin a turd for tuppence.

 

[ipf]

Landlords skin a turd for tuppence.

Someone remind me not to become a landlord......please!

 

[static zap]

One of my best drunken student party memories , was in a similar situation ,
..I wend out the back door , and wondered what had happened to next door , adjacent properties
part demolished out back , could not tell from front !
Less squatters if house not intact ! Them were the days " squatters rights " .. some aspects of being a landlord have improved , but still a big gamble.

 

[Mike Johnson]

We used to employ a couple of big lads to smash the sanitary fittings, sinks, wash hand basins etc to encourage them to move out, worked most times.

 

[timhoward]

Landlords skin a turd for tuppence.

I feel a little sorry for the decent landlords out there, I work for some good ones who do care, and they will forever be tainted by the exploitative penny pinching collective.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Being a Landlord is like any other job, it is done to make money, IMO there are fewer bad landlords than electricians, Landlords can't disappear into the night with your money and never be seen again.

 

[ipf]

Lord Lucan?

 

[brianmoooore]

Lord Lucan?

He moved in next to me.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Did not know that Lord Lucan was an unqualified electrician, that would explain his disappearing act being so successful. ?

 

[buzzlightyear]

after reading this post it made me chuckle ,if I was teletex I would have taken a duck to the landlord and say see if you can get the water out of this a33s will you.

 

[brianmoooore]

Did not know that Lord Lucan was an unqualified electrician, that would explain his disappearing act being so successful. ?

For many years my nearest neighbours were aristocracy and fairly closely related to our current Monarch.
He was high ranking ex military, was never seen outside their house, but could be frequently seen through the kitchen window, slumped over over the table, with a couple of whiskey bottles to hand.
She, on the other hand, was the nicest, most down to earth person you could ever wish to meet, but extremely well spoken, and exuding pure class. No 'nouveau riche' here; this was the real deal.
Was working in their loft on one occasion, when I came across a scrapbook containing illustrated articles and cuttings, mainly from the Daily Telegraph, covering their wedding, her 'coming out' as a debutante, birth announcements, etc.
About a year after Lucan's disappearance, a man moved into the house with them, remained there for many years, and was every bit as reclusive as the Colonel.

 

[telectrix]

update. gave him an unsat. EICR. he's panicking now, soa 13way BG dual RCD board ordered. fitting Monday.

 

[timhoward]

update. gave him an unsat. EICR. he's panicking now, soa 13way BG dual RCD board ordered. fitting Monday.

I wonder if soon we will be able to legitimately say "Do it quick before it's £100 per mandatory AFDD....."

 

[Mike Johnson]

Well we have combined RCD and MCB how long before we get readily available and sensibly priced AFRCBO :32A B 30Ma Rcbo Afdd Combined CPD, RCBO, RCD, GFCI, AFDD Circuit Breakers : Amazon.co.uk: DIY & Tools - https://www.amazon.co.uk/30Ma-Rcbo-Combined-Circuit-Breakers/dp/B087387MGP

Cheaper: 2P 30MA 63A DC TYPE A RCD, RCBO, RCD, GFCI, AFDD CIRCUIT BREAKERS FOR WYLEX | eBay - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/383809351221? but looks wrong.

 

[Mikegh]

Interesting point

In general I prefer separates when it comes to most things electrical and electronic, not just protective devices for a few different reasons

Obviously when you combine an MCB and an RCD , fault finding can become a little more complicated.
Thrown in an AFD on top of that that with occasional random trips

I may be overthinking it

 

[Mikegh]

Then there's the total cost of the combined device if a section fails like rcd trip times

The whole thing is redundant at ~£300

Most of the reason I prefer separates in general for devices and equipment

 

[Avo Mk8]

Cheaper: 2P 30MA 63A DC TYPE A RCD, RCBO, RCD, GFCI, AFDD CIRCUIT BREAKERS FOR WYLEX | eBay - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/383809351221? but looks wrong.

Interested so I had a look - the photo on eBay is exactly the same as on the CPC/Farnell website (for the part number marked on it) which is just an RCD.
I wouldn't be tempted by the listing! I wonder what you actually get?
CPC price £58 (Inc. vat). Fleabay price £114.

 

[brianmoooore]

Interested so I had a look - the photo on eBay is exactly the same as on the CPC/Farnell website (for the part number marked on it) which is just an RCD.
I wouldn't be tempted by the listing! I wonder what you actually get?
CPC price £58 (Inc. vat). Fleabay price £114.

And a lot cheaper again (~£30) if bought from an electrical wholesaler. That's just a bog standard type A RCD.

 

[Mike Johnson]

As I said when I posted the link, it looks wrong.

 

[nicebutdim]

Interested so I had a look - the photo on eBay is exactly the same as on the CPC/Farnell website (for the part number marked on it) which is just an RCD.
I wouldn't be tempted by the listing! I wonder what you actually get?
CPC price £58 (Inc. vat). Fleabay price £114.

The guy selling that simply combs websites for products they think can be sold at a profit. You place an order and they buy from whatever website and have it sent to you - often they use your details to open an account with the site to cover their tracks and avoid being blacklisted. A lot of it is automated by paying a few ££ for software, so the vendor literally sits back and lets the business run itself - at least they do untill goods aren't as advertised or need to be returned for any reason.

Can't explain how they managed to come up with such an inaccurate description for an RCD as images and text are usually lifted straight from another website.

 

[pc1966]

Wylex already do combined RCBO/AFDD, DP switching and single width. Price is going to make you squeal though:

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Where is @Pretty Mouth when you need a bit of banjo to make folk paddle harder?

 

[pc1966]

Obviously when you combine an MCB and an RCD , fault finding can become a little more complicated.
Thrown in an AFD on top of that that with occasional random trips

I may be overthinking it

The issue of false trips and diagnostics to prove if the AFDD is dodgy or there really is a sparking event on the circuit is a major point to me. Already we need to allow for the occasional RCD trip for no apparent reason (OK, usually something switching), but when a customer has spent £1-2k on a new AFDD board they really are going to be unhappy if that is more common.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Agreed, the more things we combine together the more difficult it is to diagnose, I used to be able to work on my car engine without a problem, but not anymore, unless it's mechanical.

 

[Mikegh]

Agreed, the more things we combine together the more difficult it is to diagnose, I used to be able to work on my car engine without a problem, but not anymore, unless it's mechanical.

I'm not familiar with AFDs yet in practice but that would be my thinking

If.u had one of those combi things trip once a month you could end up doing a lot of troubleshooting

Probably not too bad I suppose if it's only rcbo combi

 

[Mikegh]

I'm not familiar with AFDs yet in practice but that would be my thinking

If.u had one of those combi things trip once a month you could end up doing a lot of troubleshooting

Probably not too bad I suppose if it's only rcbo combi

I suppose realistically for a DB that's the way it has to be
All the protection combined on a single mod device

 

[nicebutdim]

I'm not familiar with AFDs yet in practice but that would be my thinking

If.u had one of those combi things trip once a month you could end up doing a lot of troubleshooting

Probably not too bad I suppose if it's only rcbo combi

David Savery posted a number of videos about AFDDs, culminating with the video posted below. What stuck in my mind, relevant to the last couple of posts, is the fact that (at least some) AFDDs will indicate the type of fault detected when tripped.

 

[Mikegh]

David Savery posted a number of videos about AFDDs, culminating with the video posted below. What stuck in my mind, relevant to the last couple of posts, is the fact that (at least some) AFDDs will indicate the type of fault detected when tripped.

Is that 1 min or 1 hr lol

 

[nicebutdim]

Is that 1 min or 1 hr lol

His videos are generally long, but enjoyable.

 

[Mikegh]

I've barely researched arc fault devices and know pretty much nothing so can be shot down and probably will be

Isn't the idea of a safe installation that arc faults don't pose a hazard without AFDs being installed

 

[nicebutdim]

Isn't the idea of a safe installation that arc faults don't pose a hazard without AFDs being installed

This has been discussed at length on the forum and David Savery has also investigated the matter in some depth.

I won't offer any personal opinion as I'm not knowledgable enough to confidently back it up, but I can recommend relaxing with a beer while watching Savery's commentary on the matter.

 

[Mikegh]

This has been discussed at length on the forum and David Savery has also investigated the matter in some depth.

I won't offer any personal opinion as I'm not knowledgable enough to confidently back it up, but I can recommend relaxing with a beer while watching Savery's commentary on the matter.

Maybe I should just watch the video lol