The Ring is dead, long live the Radial!⚡

[Scolmore]

The Ring is dead, long live the Radial!
When wiring socket outlets do you:
1. Use ring final circuits
2. Use radial circuits

 

[loz2754]

Yes I do

 

[snowhead]

All of the above.
RFC is likely to be around for 50 to 75 years at a minimum, untill all current properties get refurbed /refitted /demolished.

 

[UNG]

The Ring is dead, long live the Radial!
When wiring socket outlets do you:
1. Use ring final circuits
2. Use radial circuits

What prompts this statement?, please explain

 

[snowhead]

CLICK must be planning / looking at something that would make radials possible without having to use a 50 way D.B

My Son has just bought a 4 bedroom house in the U.S.A, it's got 3 D.B with a total of 58 circuits in them.
All sockets are on radials

 

[davesparks]

The Ring is dead, long live the Radial!
When wiring socket outlets do you:
1. Use ring final circuits
2. Use radial circuits

What a ridiculous, narrow minded question!

You clearly don't have a clue what you are talking about!

Any half decent electrician uses both types of circuit, choosing whichever one best suits the particular installation they are working on.

 

[ipf]

It can't be an either/or question. There are questions of suitability....certainly in my opinion. Are Click bringing out a 'radial only' range?

'Prefer' rather than 'use', perhaps?.....but it's still suitability.

 

[davesparks]

It can't be an either/or question. There are questions of suitability....certainly in my opinion. Are Click are bringing out a 'radial only' range?

I think they are trying to discourage people from buying their products by demonstrating their complete lack of understanding of the trade they supply materials to.

 

[Scolmore]

What prompts this statement?, please explain

Just thought it would be interesting to see what is being used most!
[automerge]1598436738[/automerge]

CLICK must be planning / looking at something that would make radials possible without having to use a 50 way D.B

My Son has just bought a 4 bedroom house in the U.S.A, it's got 3 D.B with a total of 58 circuits in them.
All sockets are on radials

No planning. Just looking at what you all think. There is no wrong answer!
[automerge]1598436851[/automerge]

It can't be an either/or question. There are questions of suitability....certainly in my opinion. Are Click bringing out a 'radial only' range?

'Prefer' rather than 'use', perhaps?.....but it's still suitability.

This is a very valid answer! Just a post to see what the majority say. Interesting to see if people do pick one of the other or whether they'd agree with your statement of it not being an either or question.

 

[UNG]

Just thought it would be interesting to see what is being used most!

So why not ask that question rather than state

The Ring is dead, long live the Radial!

As has already been mentioned both types of circuit have there merits depending on the particular requirements of the customer and the premises

 

[ipf]

Just thought it would be interesting to see what is being used most!

Fair enough. Problem with your question is that both are used. It may be a preference or it may be designated.
I've no doubt, though, you'll succeed in getting a fair bit of attention with your 'question'.......especially if the 'anti ring brigade' catch on.

 

[Scolmore]

Fair enough. Problem with your question is that both are used. It may be a preference or it may be designated.
I've no doubt, though, you'll succeed in getting a fair bit of attention with your 'question'.......especially if the 'anti ring brigade' catch on.

Both is a perfectly valid answer too

 

[UNG]

Both is a perfectly valid answer too

But not a voting option!!!!!

 

[ipf]

Both is a perfectly valid answer too

Nearly all would say both, then. Only dipsticks wouldn't....

 

[Lucien Nunes]

I think a more searching question would be:
'Apart from selecting ring or radial socket-outlet circuits on their merits for the requirements of a particular installation, do you have a personal preference or dislike for one or the other on the basis of conceptual limitations, suspicions or gut feelings?'

 

[ipf]

I think a more searching question would be:
'Apart from selecting ring or radial socket-outlet circuits on their merits for the requirements of a particular installation, do you have a personal preference or dislike for one or the other on the basis of conceptual limitations, suspicions or gut feelings?'

Then most domestic's wouldn't understand what you're tawkin abaat...???? until they get to 'gut feelings'

JOKE LADS!!...........Just quoted for a replacement CU.

 

[littlespark]

Where is option 3 - Lollypop?

 

[Pete999]

Where is option 3 - Lollypop?

It's not in my opinion, a standard circuit as far as BS7671 is concerned at least I don't think so.

 

[littlespark]

Maybe I should have put an “ironic” emoji on my post. I know it’s not a standard circuit

 

[Pete999]

Maybe I should have put an “ironic” emoji on my post. I know it’s not a standard circuit

Hindsight us a wonderful invention Mate don't fret over it.

 

[Strima]

Either depending upon the type of property and intended use of the circuit.

 

[Midwest]

Click aren't thinking of manufacturing AFDD's

 

[littlespark]

Number of sockets to install is also a factor. 1 point on a ring is a bit pointless....

“Ironic” emoji

 

[sinewove]

Number of sockets to install is also a factor. 1 point on a ring is a bit pointless....

“Ironic” emoji

Could,nt you have a problem with grouping if many 2.5mm t and e leaving the cu if all radials?
S

 

[pc1966]

Number of sockets to install is also a factor. 1 point on a ring is a bit pointless....

Well if you are talking BIG sockets and have to double up conductors for current carrying capacity...

But exactly the point. For a couple of sockets radial is the best plan, for a whole floor's worth (or high-ish power density like a kitchen, or high protective conductor currents like computer room) then the ring rules them all.

What is the big deal? Click-bait? Oh yes, it worked...

 

[FatAlan]

Where is option 3 - Lollypop?

What about option 4 - Hedgehog. RFC with loads of spurs?

 

[GBDamo]

What about option 4 - Hedgehog. RFC with loads of spurs?

A coronavirus, a 6mm ring with lots of 6mm radials with 2.5 rings on the end.

Completely noncompliant, unnecessary and impractical but it would look lovely on a drawing.

 

[ferg]

Both have their uses and like most I use whatever is best at the time.

 

[Dustydazzler]

If it’s just one or two sockets required it’s a simple 20a radial feeder

if it’s More than 2 than it’s a ring for me

 

[telectrix]

surprised that nobody has commented that rings are for cooking on. ( chip pan/frying pan/saucepan). .

 

[Pete999]

What about option 4 - Hedgehog. RFC with loads of spurs?

That's just an RFC with multiple spurs, mothing odd about that method

 

[FatAlan]

That's just an RFC with multiple spurs, mothing odd about that method

I know Pete Can we call you Pete999 aka Lord of the Rings?

 

[7029 dave]

I have had a terrible day, and this post has just topped it, what a stupid thread, going back on the red wine.
You got a disagree from me big time

 

[nicebutdim]

This thread went well.

 

[Pete999]

I know Pete Can we call you Pete999 aka Lord of the Rings?

If you must

 

[DPG]

If it was intended as a straightforward question about rings and radials then the title was not very well thought out!

 

[radiohead]

As has already been stated an 'either or' question is far too simplistic, both rings and radials have their uses.
I think it is worth summarising what I see as some disadvantages of both circuits.

Existing rings...(on EICR's for example) are an absolute pain to verify. Unknown layouts and non-textbook readings mean verifying the possible presence of spurs from spurs, interconnections etc is time consuming and involves much dismantling. Most of us use plug in testing adaptors which often produce odd readings due to contact or switch resistance on ancient outlets, the only certain way is to drop the points and use probes straight onto terminations, disruptive, time consuming and damaging to surface finish. Real time constraints when carrying out EICR's at acceptable cost mean ring circuits are often not properly verified and the inspector has to make judgement calls on whether the circuit is correctly wired. That said I love testing my own rings and calculating whether measured readings are spot on!
As far as radials go there was a long thread on here a while back where an OP stated rings should be outlawed because they are often abused by Kev the kitchen fitter and DIY Dave, his point was radials are much safer.
But unskilled persons being unable to correctly alter a ring is not a reason for banning it, ban Kev and Dave...not the ring!!
That point of view also ignores the potential danger of a radial. One bad or broken connection of the cpc may result in every downstream point working and apparently ok but not having an earth.
I think the safest circuit of all is a radial serving one point from a 16 or 20a OCPD, but the practicalities of that with the number of points modern properties require make it a non starter, not only for the capacity of DB required, but for the sheer quantity of wiring involved.
It is though an interesting phenomenon that many people are completely incapable of altering a ring, and finishing up still with a ring, and not just Kev and Dave. A ring is one of the simplest of all circuits, just a loop of cable which starts and finishes at the same point, and yet it continually seems to generate utter incompetence.

 

[Dustydazzler]

People think rings are bad , I recently watched a video of a guy wiring his house in America and he put lights and sockets on the same circuit using the same sized cable and kept calling it ‘roughing’ in his wiring...

it was blooming rough and at every point he stripped the cores back & twisted the bare copper earths together and shoved them in the back of each box so he had just the L & N to connect later

 

[telectrix]

People think rings are bad , I recently watched a video of a guy wiring his house in America and he put lights and sockets on the same circuit using the same sized cable and kept calling it ‘roughing’ in his wiring...

it was blooming rough and at every point he stripped the cores back & twisted the bare copper earths together and shoved them in the back of each box so he had just the L & N to connect later

and no doubt a proliferation of fire nuts. on another forum, predominantly American, several members praise their silly wire nuts and condemn wagos.

 

[KennyKen]

People think rings are bad , I recently watched a video of a guy wiring his house in America and he put lights and sockets on the same circuit using the same sized cable and kept calling it ‘roughing’ in his wiring...

it was blooming rough and at every point he stripped the cores back & twisted the bare copper earths together and shoved them in the back of each box so he had just the L & N to connect later

Yeah, I was watching the ideal international sparky championship. Aussie, Canadian, American and a Chinese fella in the final. Someone in the comments section asked where the British entry was. The comments were “Anyone who uses Rings, are not invited” and the like. These foreign morons have no idea of the concept. They probably would have trouble wiring one.

 

[Midwest]

Yeah, I was watching the ideal international sparky championship. Aussie, Canadian, American and a Chinese fella in the final. Someone in the comments section asked where the British entry was. The comments were “Anyone who uses Rings, are not invited” and the like. These foreign morons have no idea of the concept. They probably would have trouble wiring one.

I thought you were going to say a joke; at the sparkie championship, there was an Aussie, Canadian, American & Chinese's sparks in the competition.

When asked, where were the British entries, they said they weren't invited as they would run rings around us.

 

[pc1966]

Real time constraints when carrying out EICR's at acceptable cost mean ring circuits are often not properly verified and the inspector has to make judgement calls on whether the circuit is correctly wired. That said I love testing my own rings and calculating whether measured readings are spot on!
As far as radials go there was a long thread on here a while back where an OP stated rings should be outlawed because they are often abused by Kev the kitchen fitter and DIY Dave, his point was radials are much safer.
But unskilled persons being unable to correctly alter a ring is not a reason for banning it, ban Kev and Dave...not the ring!!
That point of view also ignores the potential danger of a radial. One bad or broken connection of the cpc may result in every downstream point working and apparently ok but not having an earth.

The problem with properly verifying a ring is not lost on a radial either (for the record, I think spurs off a ring are the Devil's work and should be you last resort).

Say you have a 32A radial in 4mm, how often would an EICR check it had not been extended in 2.5mm for much the same risk as a double-spur on a ring?

Yes, the usual radials on 20A might be safe for 2.5mm but it is the same underlying problem - if some idiot has extended a circuit badly it is not always apparent from the readings.

I guess checking the worst case Zs is OK for the MCB is probably good enough for most cases, but complete verification of an unknown is a costly and difficult situation in both cases.

 

[radiohead]

The problem with properly verifying a ring is not lost on a radial either (for the record, I think spurs off a ring are the Devil's work and should be you last resort).

Say you have a 32A radial in 4mm, how often would an EICR check it had not been extended in 2.5mm for much the same risk as a double-spur on a ring?

Yes, the usual radials on 20A might be safe for 2.5mm but it is the same underlying problem - if some idiot has extended a circuit badly it is not always apparent from the readings.

I guess checking the worst case Zs is OK for the MCB is probably good enough for most cases, but complete verification of an unknown is a costly and difficult situation in both cases.

Indeed, and one of my bugbears on this forum is those who advise punters to have an EICR because it will identify any problems. No it wont necessarily.... and those of us tasked with carrying out EICR's are not helped by the creation of unrealistic expectations of what an EICR can identify.

 

[Vortigern]

I think the ring is for the more technical minded. The maths in it are great. Really it is not for amateurs so I can see why dumbing down is the way to go as with so many things today. The ring is dead (as it should be while working on it!) long live the ring! would be the correct use of that paraphrase.

 

[pc1966]

I think the ring is for the more technical minded. The maths in it are great. Really it is not for amateurs so I can see why dumbing down is the way to go as with so many things today.

I don't quite understand that statement.

The "radial" in the general sense might often be used for all sorts of strange loads so calculating its safe parameters is a bit of a challenge at times.

The radial for a couple of 13A sockets is fairly easy but typically you would see 2-3 MCB sizes possibly used, and 1.5 (dodgy) / 2.5 / 4mm choices depending if it is one, a few, a lot of sockets (or quite long).

The RFC on the other hand, if you keep away from the Devil's spurs, is really simple for 99% or so of cases:

• Use 2.5mm cable
• Use a 32A B MCB
• Loop the cable round from MCB, to every 13A socket, back to same MCB
• Keep that length below 96m (or look closely at the OSG & check your DB Ze)

Yes, the RFC is dumb choice if you only have a couple of sockets at a remote-ish area, but for most general house wiring it is simple and effective.

I really think if either of them is difficult for someone to grasp then they ought not to be doing it though! But that applies to a lot of things in life.

 

[Vortigern]

I don't quite understand that statement.

To be honest I was being a bit provocative/sarcastic. I fully agree there is a place for each of the types of circuit. And the radial is essential in a number of cases. What I rail against is the disposal of the ring final circuit in favour of the radial taking over and dispensing with rfc altogether. I don't think people have thought this through actually. So we have a radial as the preferred household circuit. Branching and branches off of the branches, a kind of fractal growth of additions over the years. Now, it is you job to track down a fault. What would you prefer a nightmare of endless branches or a nice orderly ring with a crossover?

 

[pc1966]

Agreed, the problem is the badly-done additions to either type of circuit, not the basic premise.

But you can't make something foolproof as fools are so damn inventive, just look over the "dodgy pictures" thread, etc!

 

[ipf]

Just had a look at the latest results on this poll...not voted myself, by the way.
Ring 27, Rad 5........I wonder how many of those radders have voted for rings too, as should be the case.
For the actual question, it should be 50/50, IMO.... both
On the other hand, I'll bet all the ringers use rads as well, although all the rads don't use rings. So the rads should beat the rings.

It must be getting cold, the rad's have come on and I've got to go, the phones ringing....

 

[Mike Johnson]

I voted for Radials as that is all the French allow, maximum of eight sockets on 1.5mm and twelve sockets on 2.5mm no calculations needed, all specialty outlets to be in 4mm or 6mm according to load, the list of specialty outlets is very long, but includes hob, oven, fridge, freezer, washing machine, tumble dryer.................well you get the idea.

 

[mattg4321]

Running a 4mm2 to supply a domestic fridge seems like a criminal waste of resources.