LABC don't think I'm qualified to wire my house

[sparksburnout]

W

As I understand it C&G 2360 is no longer a recognised qualification, 2391 has been superseded by more updated qualifications, so it looks to me (I could be wrong) that the only up to date qual you have is BS7671 17th edition update, which as it has been sai before does not qualify you as a fully trained Electrician. I'm sure there are other people who can agree or disagree, may be that is the reason they have said what they did. When I was working my company sent everybody and their Dog on the 17th, most passed, those that did then considered themselves as Electricians, which, of course as we all know is total carp, sorry to be so blunt, but that's how it is.

When I did my 17th edition (because I had to for the scam' like everyone else) there was a bloke there that worked in a library. He had been sent by his employed to "broaden his knowledge"! He had NO electrical knowledge whatsoever. Anyone like to guess if he passed or not? I reckon my missus could pass it, but I wouldn't use anything she subsequently wired up.......

 

[David Prosser]

Yes the JIB recognise 2391 as well 2360 which was the first step into training as an electrician back when I started.

I'm unaware of 2391 not being recognised any more.

Thanks for the input. Could you shed some light as to what you concider to be a qualified electrician then?

 

[Midwest]

I don't think a qualification C&G 2360 can deemed to be no longer recognised, the course has just been superseded by another C&G course (however was there a level 3 the OP does not appear to have?).

This goes back to one of my previous posts, that a LABC will have no concern on allowing a scheme member carrying out the work, because their scheme is responsible for verification of qualifications (regardless of actual competency). However, if the LABC is required to check competency, as suggested by this thread, how are their qualified to do this? There are so many different courses, qualifications, it must be vary hit & miss.

OP, just sit down with the decision maker and find out why you have been declined.

PS When I had an extension done, I paid fees for the building work, and fees for the double glazed windows I installed.

 

[Pete999]

Yes the JIB recognise 2391 as well 2360 which was the first step into training as an electrician back when I started.

I'm unaware of 2391 not being recognised any more.

Thanks for the input. Could you shed some light as to what you concider to be a qualified electrician then?

Not sure if 2391 is not recognised, but I think the test and Inspect quals I believe have been split into to separate quals.

Some of the younger blokes can help you out with what quals are needed, mind you quals on their own don't necessarily make you an Electrician, experience is an essential part as well, I qualified way back when Jesus played in goal for Bethlehem.

 

[Midwest]

Perhaps a LABC should be responsible for verifying applicants qualifications for applications to a scheme, and not the schemes themselves

PS Not directed at you DAvid.

 

[David Prosser]

Between I think 94 and 99 There was no level 3 as you go into the NVQ stage after level 2.

 

[David Prosser]

Perhaps a LABC should be responsible for verifying applicants qualifications for applications to a scheme, and not the schemes themselves

PS Not directed at you DAvid.

No problem can't be at me as I'm not in a scheme!

 

[Midwest]

Good point. You'll have to see what qualifications your LABC expect to see. Would a JIB card (electrician etc) support your competency along with a C&G 2382(BS7671)?

 

[Diddy]

I am not saying I agree with the situation, but that is how it is. People DO get refused admission, there was a guy on here just the other day. I believe you need at least a level 3 qual now, not some 3 week bronze rubbish as suggested to become a scheme member. Personally, I don't see how a complete novice could do a short course and get past any assessment I have ever had from any of my former schemes. You might be right about some areas, but as far as I am aware, from general information and from chatting to my local BCO, they adopt the simple rules I outlined.

From someone who was pontificating about ME talking out of my proverbial....
1. The regs IS a level 3 course and meets the requirement
2. I have already told you......You could get your Aunt Beryl to do the 18 day course and then apply to join...I have never heard of anybody being outright refused membership EVER....retest at the very worst.
3. These courses are still very much active
4. "As far as im aware" - As far as im aware does not make it a fact does it ?

And im the one talking out of my proverbial....seems i know at least as much about part p and I don't have to deal with it every day....frightening that so many people misunderstand what it is that is requires to undertake notifiable work.

 

[Diddy]

Unbelievable what some people are spouting and stating it as fact...
BS 7671 IS a level 3 exam and Does entitle you to register with a scheme and they use the level 3 as their acceptance.

C&G 2360 is no longer a recognized qualification, 2391

Thank god they are on the back of my current JIB gold card.....They may well be superseded and replaced but they are still fully recognized....Think about what you are saying ....That some spark who has been working in the game for 40years no is somehow no longer qualified because some new easier exam has replaced what went before....And we ALL know it's easier don't we ?
Some would be better just commenting "I actually don't know"....

 

[Midwest]

Unbelievable what some people are spouting and stating it as fact...
BS 7671 IS a level 3 exam and Does entitle you to register with a scheme and they use the level 3 as their acceptance.

Thank god they are on the back of my current JIB gold card.....They may well be superseded and replaced but they are still fully recognized....Think about what you are saying ....That some spark who has been working in the game for 40years no is somehow no longer qualified because some new easier exam has replaced what went before....And we ALL know it's easier don't we ?
Some would be better just commenting "I actually don't know"....

Easy tiger. I did allude to that in #53, but I don't think the OP has level 3?

Edit; referring to OP's C&G 2360

 

[Diddy]

Easy tiger. I did allude to that in #53, but I don't think the OP has level 3?

I am a bit miffed to be honest Midwest. I just didn't like being told that I was "talking out of my proverbial" by someone who actually it turns out really does not know what the scheme requirements are nor what several local councils allow or do not allow. Deep breath lol....I know it's just the internet and people write stuff off the top of their head ALL the time but still a little bit of mutual respect and maybe even a bit of fact checking go a long way.
I just get peed off (On my english friends behalf) that this ill thought out Part P scheme is somehow being lauded as the great enforcer....It is not, It has done nothing to stop DIY Dave, All it has done is 1. opened up a short cut (18 days) into the trade and 2. enabled a load of kitchen fitters to do the electrical work and notify it and finally 3 created a lot of expense and waste of time for people with "proper" qualifications coming out of their ears

We surely ALL agree that passing the regs exam never makes you a spark.....Try telling the NICEIC that though....As long as the cheque clears all will be well. That does not make you a fully qualified electrician but sadly it does enable you to trade as a domestic installer and to work on domestic electrics. Tis not me who makes the "rules" up....I am just a mere messenger with a tiny bit of knowledge lol.

 

[David Prosser]

Easy tiger. I did allude to that in #53, but I don't think the OP has level 3?

Edit; referring to OP's C&G 2360

OK I did not wish to cause a falling out between any one.

I only have level 1&2 2360 as level 3 was removed and I think you either went NVQ or AM2 I'm not an full time installer by trade so I'm on the NVQ route.

However I have spent 20min on the phone and cleared up both the percived lack off qualifications and the paying of two seperate fees. I will be getting a visits from there inspector but would of only had to pay the lower fee ( now no additional fee).

Tin hat on.

 

[Taylortwocities]

Perhaps a LABC should be responsible for verifying applicants qualifications for applications to a scheme, and not the schemes themselves

You must be joking. Councils have neither the skills or the inclination to do this. If they did they would have to take on responsibility and skill for every activity that requires notification, stuff like oil tanks, air conditioning, double glazing units. It isn't going to happen.

All LABC want is a notification (usually electronically) from a recognised third party that Mssrs Sparky have done their job properly. That's all they need, nice and simple. If anything goes wrong they can go back to the recognised third party and kick their butts for not policing Mssrs Sparky's activities.

Anything outside this involves time, work and for the council to take on a level of ownership of the process. They do not want to do this, so they charge accordingly.

If I were to do David's work then the notification costs about £2.50 (setting aside my standing NAPIT membership costs).

I do not know at what stage David is at with this project. If it isn't started yet then maybe its time to buddy up with a registered electrician who may be prepared to let you do most of the grunt and then sign the work off as his own.

 

[Dan]

Keep it professional lads.

 

[David Prosser]

As I'm now able to do the work myself and at no additional administative costs I will keep my £2.50 in my pocket and my tea and biscuit stash safe.

As I'm going about this the right way I ofcourse have not started any installation work before notifying LABC. I'm still ripping out the rubber singles and bakalite socket and switches.

 

[sparksburnout]

I am a bit miffed to be honest Midwest. I just didn't like being told that I was "talking out of my proverbial" by someone who actually it turns out really does not know what the scheme requirements are nor what several local councils allow or do not allow. Deep breath lol....I know it's just the internet and people write stuff off the top of their head ALL the time but still a little bit of mutual respect and maybe even a bit of fact checking go a long way.
I just get peed off (On my english friends behalf) that this ill thought out Part P scheme is somehow being lauded as the great enforcer....It is not, It has done nothing to stop DIY Dave, All it has done is 1. opened up a short cut (18 days) into the trade and 2. enabled a load of kitchen fitters to do the electrical work and notify it and finally 3 created a lot of expense and waste of time for people with "proper" qualifications coming out of their ears

We surely ALL agree that passing the regs exam never makes you a spark.....Try telling the NICEIC that though....As long as the cheque clears all will be well. That does not make you a fully qualified electrician but sadly it does enable you to trade as a domestic installer and to work on domestic electrics. Tis not me who makes the "rules" up....I am just a mere messenger with a tiny bit of knowledge lol.

For your information, I am fully aware of what the requirements are, certainly in my area, as 1) i am IN a scheme, and have discussed these very points with the assessor during my last chat with him, and 2) I have dealt with Building control, and in fact know a BCO. In my neck of the woods they either come out themselves (usually using a contractor), after a building notice has been served, or they take the submission via a scheme from the competent person involved. These are their words not mine, I am not sticking up for anyone involved. There is no half way house or looking into a particular persons qualifications, that is what the schemes were introduced for.
As regards people going on that 18 day course, if you read the information in the link, it is very sketchy in parts and does not say that you will definitely be able to do anything. My assessor told me that he himself had failed several people for not having the required qualifications, or their work not being up to scratch. From the questions I have personally been asked during several assessments, I cannot see how someone who has only done an 18 day course will possibly have the knowledge to answer them confidently. I am also pretty sure that Stroma do not just accept the regs course as the only qualification they need to see. Maybe other schemes do to be a "DI", I have never looked into that side of it as it does not interest me.
I apologise if you took exception to my comments about your proverbial, it's just an expression that blokes tend to use when having a bit of a discussion, maybe I shouldn't have said it on here, maybe you might be being a tad sensitive? Anyway no offence meant, and have a nice Xmas

 

[Diddy]

Keep it professional lads.

I for one apologize to all for getting heated...As happens sometimes im letting home-life stress come out in some of my ill tempered replies. No excuse.
End of the day the OP now has his definitive answer, Which as always is usually got by calling/emailing "The Man". As far as op is concerned he has saved a few pounds and is able to use his previously measured skill (in the form of his qualifications) to do the work AND notify said work and comply with all relevant regulations and statutes.

 

[Diddy]

For your information, I am fully aware of what the requirements are, certainly in my area, as 1) i am IN a scheme, and have discussed these very points with the assessor during my last chat with him, and 2) I have dealt with Building control, and in fact know a BCO. In my neck of the woods they either come out themselves (usually using a contractor), after a building notice has been served, or they take the submission via a scheme from the competent person involved. These are their words not mine, I am not sticking up for anyone involved. There is no half way house or looking into a particular persons qualifications, that is what the schemes were introduced for.
As regards people going on that 18 day course, if you read the information in the link, it is very sketchy in parts and does not say that you will definitely be able to do anything. My assessor told me that he himself had failed several people for not having the required qualifications, or their work not being up to scratch. From the questions I have personally been asked during several assessments, I cannot see how someone who has only done an 18 day course will possibly have the knowledge to answer them confidently. I am also pretty sure that Stroma do not just accept the regs course as the only qualification they need to see. Maybe other schemes do to be a "DI", I have never looked into that side of it as it does not interest me.
I apologise if you took exception to my comments about your proverbial, it's just an expression that blokes tend to use when having a bit of a discussion, maybe I shouldn't have said it on here, maybe you might be being a tad sensitive? Anyway no offence meant, and have a nice Xmas

As I alluded to mate im just a bit stressy knickers at the moment. We move onwards and er...upwards lol. I know MANY councils in England do not accept the method that op's council have...And that was/is my gripe. It is NOT one organization. It is not based on a definitive set of qualifications nor experience and if you stand back and look at the current system objectively then the flaws (For which YOU and many others are paying for) are all too easy to expose and exploit. Until we have a properly policed scheme like GasSafe that prosecutes ect ect then I will always view these middle men for what they are.
Last point I was talking exclusively about domestic installers....Which enables LABC notifying and honestly there are clueless "newbies" that can and do "trade" as sparks (Domestic only) and these short courses enable them to do so. A discussion for another day lol. There has been hundreds of posts on here from apparently fully approved DI's asking the very most basic of questions which really belong in the DIY section....I don't even blame them poor sods...they have been missold a "dream" often accompanied with the advert stating we ALL earn £50k +...That is why I get peed off by these parasites. Anyway have a good day and a good xmas.

 

[Midwest]

You must be joking.

Yep I was

 

[Midwest]

OK I did not wish to cause a falling out between any one.

I only have level 1&2 2360 as level 3 was removed and I think you either went NVQ or AM2 I'm not an full time installer by trade so I'm on the NVQ route.

However I have spent 20min on the phone and cleared up both the percived lack off qualifications and the paying of two seperate fees. I will be getting a visits from there inspector but would of only had to pay the lower fee ( now no additional fee).

Tin hat on.

Why did they decline you qualies firstly, out of curiosity? Slightly fuller explanation might help others in the future.

 

[Midwest]

I think as this thread proves, some LBC seem to interpret the Building Regs differently.

For clarity Part P Building Regs, gives 3 options for Certification, inspection & testing (pages 9 & 10); http://webarchive.nationalarchives....portal.gov.uk/uploads/br/br_pdf_ad_p_2013.pdf

Third option; Certification by Building Control. Looking at 3.8 to 3.12.

 

[David Prosser]

Why did they decline you qualies firstly, out of curiosity? Slightly fuller explanation might help others in the future.

Very simple and a little bit sneaky, if I contact them after the they have declined them then he gets to talk to me about the job and my qualifications, and If I don't bother to get to them then maybe I'm not that interested anyway ! I guess that may not be the correct way for them to go about it but it works for them. The surveyor I spoke to seamed quite knowledgeable on the subject, I quite enjoyed talking with him.

 

[Midwest]

Tad sneaky. Suppose it puts off the ne'er-do-wells.

 

[sparksburnout]

As I alluded to mate im just a bit stressy knickers at the moment. We move onwards and er...upwards lol. I know MANY councils in England do not accept the method that op's council have...And that was/is my gripe. It is NOT one organization. It is not based on a definitive set of qualifications nor experience and if you stand back and look at the current system objectively then the flaws (For which YOU and many others are paying for) are all too easy to expose and exploit. Until we have a properly policed scheme like GasSafe that prosecutes ect ect then I will always view these middle men for what they are.
Last point I was talking exclusively about domestic installers....Which enables LABC notifying and honestly there are clueless "newbies" that can and do "trade" as sparks (Domestic only) and these short courses enable them to do so. A discussion for another day lol. There has been hundreds of posts on here from apparently fully approved DI's asking the very most basic of questions which really belong in the DIY section....I don't even blame them poor sods...they have been missold a "dream" often accompanied with the advert stating we ALL earn £50k +...That is why I get peed off by these parasites. Anyway have a good day and a good xmas.

No worries, better than kicking the dog.

 

[happysteve]

Eh up

It sounds like your situation has been resolved to your satisfaction, which is good to see.

For info, there is a guidance document for use by local Building Control Bodies on assessing competence for those doing notifiable electrical work that are NOT members of a competent person scheme. They may have used this document. The link to the relevant web page is: Electrician Competence Recognition - The IET - http://www.------.org/policy/collaboration/sa4e/index.cfm

It's a joint publication:

This Guidance document has been produced by the Institution of Engineering & Technology in collaboration with:

- The Building Control Alliance (BCA)
- The Engineering Council
- The Joint Industry Board for the Electrical Contracting Industry (JIB)
- Unite the union (UNITE)
- The Electrical Contractors Association (ECA)
- Summit Skills
​

They don't provide the PDF directly - you need to give them your name, email address and phone number - but I did so (a while back), and got the document (can't remember how, probably via email).

In particular, there is a large table where there is a matrix of competencies (qualifications and experience), then an indication of "Level of risk/cost to BCB".


So if you're in a similar position to the original poster, and consider yourself to have the necessary qualifications and experience to be able to persuade building control of your competence, it would be worth while getting the guidance note that BC themselves use in assessing your competence.

This has been a public service announcement on behalf of happysteve. Sorry it's been a while. Been busy.

 

[David Prosser]

Nice one. Could of done with this a few days ago ! Well worth putting up for any else in future.

May be worth starting a new thread with it and getting it stuck up as not everyone (or anyone) will wont to read through all this.

 

[Taylortwocities]

May be worth starting a new thread with it and getting it stuck up as not everyone (or anyone) will wont to read through all this.

I have a copy of the PDF and will put it in 'resources' shortly.

@Dan I do not see a suitable category for this in resources. Can you create one called LABC, or Building Control please?
Tks TTC

 

[Midwest]

Wonder if anyone here has completed the pdf to see if they're competent

 

[Dan]

I have a copy of the PDF and will put it in 'resources' shortly.

@Dan I do not see a suitable category for this in resources. Can you create one called LABC, or Building Control please?
Tks TTC

Done.
Building Control - http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk/resources/categories/building-control.24/

 

[Octopus]

Maybe it needs to be called building control and part p

 

[Jay Sparks]

Done.
Building Control - http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk/resources/categories/building-control.24/

The link seems to be empty!

 

[Taylortwocities]

Done.
Building Control - http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk/resources/categories/building-control.24/

Hi @Dan
Sorry to be dim but I have the file. It is a PDF.
I go to Create Resurce and select Building Control.
The uploaded file button is selected, but how do i select the file that is to be uploaded. There's no field to do this!

**Confused**